HELPMEFIND PLANTS COMMERCIAL NON-COMMERCIAL RESOURCES EVENTS PEOPLE RATINGS
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Have you seen the size, Margaret?!!, it will cover my house!!, and the plant it's 5 years old.... it become a monster!
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Found tea, noisette? rose in Buenos Aires Province, Argentina. Vigorous, fragrant flowers, double or semi double, beautiful when buds, open loose,bushy, 250 cm high x 200 cm width. It flower all season, occasional repeat, later in the season, middle green leaves.I ask if It could be 'L'Ideal', G. Nabonnand 1887??
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Hello Rafael, My gut feeling is that it is not 'L'Ideal'. I spent a couple of hours adding a few more references to the 'L'Ideal' file and it seems that 'L'Ideal' may have been small to medium plant, with a small to medium sized, semi-double bloom. It was often mentioned alongside 'William Allen Richardson' and I think that may be a smaller sized bloom. Your photo with your hand in it (315489) seems to show quite a large bloom. Another gut feeling (of which I am not quite sure about) is that blooms with that spiky pointed outline might be that of a more modern rose. I really hope that other people might contribute their thoughts on this beautiful rose.
Perhaps it might be valuable to look at 'L'Ideal's descendants to see if any tiny scrap of knowledge can be gleaned from those roses.
If you would like us to make a file for your foundling, please let us know the "study name".
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A wonderful find, whatever it is!
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And Thank you Margaret!!!, she is very pretty in bud....not so much when open....but have a good fragrance
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Thank you Patricia for your interest!!, I take cuttings from the plant (from Buenos Aires) and now grows in my garden, with very different climate and soil ( and I hope she pass the winter...this is the third...), I think that many characteristics match with the references of L'Ideal, especially the color and shape of the flowers when it said that have very good shape in bud, loose when expanded...and it's not so big, no more than 8 cm diameter. Any way this is a strange rose, and L'Ideal become a strange rose too since there are no photos at all, only the chromolithography. Best regards!!
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I give her a study name "Juani de Temperley", Juani is a affectionate diminutive of Juana, the name of the lady owner of the garden where I found the rose, and Temperley is a suburb of Buenos Aires, originally inhabited by many English immigrants.
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File opened. Let's leave the photos where they are for a couple of days to give others a chance to look at them and respond.
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#7 of 13 posted
24 APR 18 by
HubertG
How's this for being fanciful/imaginative?
Louise Bourbonnaud was a wealthy Parisian philanthropist and socialite who I believe travelled extensively including to Buenos Airies. She had a Nabonnand rose named after her. Perhaps someone (English or not) had met her during her travels and ordered her rose to grow. The description seems to match fairly well. 'Louise Bourbonnaud' is from G. Nabonnand x Gen. Schablikine.
Chances are it isn't this, but something to think about.
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Rafael, is there any history attached to the rose? (how long it has been there). I am not sure if the size of the stump (base) will be of any use, as the stump of a 50 year old rose might be the same as that of a 100 year old rose. You say " It flower all season, occasional repeat, later in the season". Can you be more definite in that? Does it set hips? Any photos?
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Teas can get very big, and some don't take long to do it. Do you think your Juani is a climber, or just an old bush?
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Hi Patricia and Margaret!, I'm sorry but I can't answer about how old is the "mother" plant, and how it was treated (pruned, etc) to know the size of the plant (people here sometimes prune the roses like HT...), any way she seemed not so pruned at all or not so much...I am telling this vagueness because I am now in my house in Patagonia and the rose it's in Buenos Aires, and the owner is not a close friend (and she is an old lady...). But I remember when I saw the rose was nearly end of autumn and it have only a few flowers and buds (and Buenos Aires have a very temperate climate), the plant looked very vigorous and healthy, and was about 250 cm high (2,50 m), it don't look like a climber, rather bushy. My plant that I take from cuttings it's well growing here in my garden, it's almost three years old and it's near 90 cm high now, it flower all season in flushes, but now (autumn) have no buds and I think she is going to sleep!!, I think it does no hips but any way we must consider that my plant it's very young, and probably she will do when grows. I put a photo here of the general look of the plant mother, I don't know if the photo shows well the appearance. I will try to talk with the lady colleague of Asociación Argentina de Rosicultura, Buenos Aires, who take me to see the rose to her friend house, may be she can send me more photos. Thank you Ladies!!
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Our pleasure Rafael.
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I think it is time to move those photos now. I'll do it for you Rafael. It is a great pity that nobody has replied publicly, but I have shared in a private email from a rosarian who had a most interesting thought on this rose. I'll get her permission to share it with you in the new file.
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Thank you Patricia!!
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Continuing a thread from "What Is This" Rafael, Yes, these are infrastipular prickles. It seems it also produces prickles elsewhere on the older wood - your photo 309122.
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Yes Patricia, and a lot of prickles on the new canes
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I add new pics of the canes where you can see large number of prickles!!!
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#3 of 14 posted
1 DEC 17 by
Jay-Jay
The flower-buds made me think of Thérèse Bugnet. Is it maybe one of her ancestors: 'R. amblyotis'?
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Buds of R. cinnamomea 'Plena' http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.282728
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#5 of 14 posted
1 DEC 17 by
Jay-Jay
Some of my Thérèse Bugnet seedlings look like Your rose. The red twigs would speak for that.
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#6 of 14 posted
1 DEC 17 by
Jay-Jay
R. cinnamomea Plena seems not to have those glands on the flower-buds, like Rafael Maino's rose... and Your rose either.
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I found the rose growing in a hedgerow where an old cottage once stood. Before I saw it in flower I thought it was 'The D'orsay Rose'. When the blooms opened it was obviously different. HMF set up a study page 'Bissett Cottage Rose' and I was contacted by other members who believed it was actually R. cinnamomea 'Plena'. http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.75130&tab=1
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#8 of 14 posted
1 DEC 17 by
Jay-Jay
Your rose has red twigs, does Cinamomea have those too? Thérèse Bugnet has!
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Hmmmmm you're right it has green stems, So what do you think my rose could be? I have to say it does not look that similar to any of the parents of 'Thérèse Bugnet'.
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#10 of 14 posted
1 DEC 17 by
Jay-Jay
Andrew maybe the last part of this discussion belongs to the page for Your found rose; 'Bissett Cottage Rose'.
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Andrew, I think that your "Bisset Cottage Rose" is indeed 'Rosa cinnamomea plena', I saw it some years ago in Sangerhausen Rosarium, and the plant and flowers are identical, I will try to find some photos i take there, and add to your BCR page, to compare
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Thank you Rafael, that would be helpful.
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Hello Jay-Jay, I think my rose is not R. amblyotis, if you look at the stipules, this in "Raff Majalis" are big and round, in R. amblyotis are thin and red, in "RM" are green, the leaves are not so big like in amblyotis, and have not so many leaflets, only 3 to 7. The clusters of buds are initially covered by bracts and the stipules of leaves. The leaves of "RM" are more dark green grey bluish than Amblyotis leaves. The hips in amblyotis are round, in "RM" are "turbinate"
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#14 of 14 posted
2 DEC 17 by
Jay-Jay
Like You point out, one has always got to look at all the aspects, to define/determine a rose. And not only at a rose-flower(bud).
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Hello Andrew, as I promise you I try to find my photos of R. majalis plena from Sangerhausen, but I find only one!, I add to the comments, and I hope it will be helpful
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Thank you Rafael, that is useful because you can see the red stems that this and my rose have that are green on Rosa cinnamomea 'Plena'.
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