HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
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rafael maino
most recent 27 JAN 14 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 25 JAN 14 by rafael maino
Hi everyone,
Found rose, probably Hybrid Perpetual, someone may suggest some identity of this beauty??
Reply #1 of 8 posted 25 JAN 14 by Patricia Routley
Hello Rafael,
Two good identification characteristics are in your photos. A long sloping receptacle, and thorns.

The “Bariloche” rose has a similar long sloping receptacle of ‘Paul Neyron’, but I am discounting that because “Bariloche” has thorns and ‘Paul Neyron’ is almost thornless.

Consider ‘La Reine’. Something about the bloom bud/form is reminding me on the old illustrations of ‘La Reine’. Have a look at Jedmar’s 1848 illustration of ‘La Reine’.

And consider ‘Mrs. John Laing’, which I don’t have, so am unable to help further here, but the colour may be similar.

You should give your foundlings temporary “study names”. I note you also submitted photos of a different rose on June 18, 2012 , and referred to that rose as - found in Bariloche.
Reply #2 of 8 posted 26 JAN 14 by rafael maino
Hello Patricia,
Thank you for your prompt response, I was looking 'La Reine', 'Paul Neyron' and 'Mrs John Laing', and I think that the more similar to my foundling (as you suggest I will name it "Bariloche Namuncura" -Namuncura is the name of the street where I found this rose, together with my friend Carolina, another fanatic rustler), as I said, the more similar is 'La Reine'. May be Paul Neyron too, but as you can see in the photos I post of "B. Namuncura", the leaves are more long and pointed, more clear green, and drop down in V shape.
I get 'Paul Neyron' this year, not even flourished, so I can't compare it, but although the plant is too young, I can see that the leaves of PN are more round an dark green. The thing is that PN is a rose that you can find in Argentina's nurseries, but I myself have never heard about La Reine in the country, so it would really be a real find!!
I think that "Bariloche Namuncura" look very similar to your W. Australian foundling "Kelvin Road", and the Jedmar's 1848 illustration of 'La Reine´.
I will continue my remarks comparing my PN with "B.Namuncura", so in the near future will clarify the dilema.
And Patricia, thank you for your attention to my question of June 18, 2012, in reference to this rose, it is still a mystery.
I stayed past year at the meeting in Sangerhausen of the WFRS Heritage Roses, and I brought my concerns about this Rose ( that temporarily I put the study and funny name of "Contessa Gambarota", don't laugh, the mythological Contessa Gambarota was the antique owner of the farm where I found the rose). Obviously this rose is a centifolia, but what centifolia, nobody knows.... I didn't saw her in the Rosarium, the more similar I saw was 'René D'Anjou', but this is moss, not as well my "Contessa" the way, as the "Contessa" is a tremendous vigorous rose that suckers (like centifolias do...) all around, you can find it in every poor house here in Bariloche, and quite despised in, I can say, "bourgeois gardens" here...and I think it is a very lovely and fine rose, with a strong spicy antique fragrance.
Best regards,
Reply #3 of 8 posted 26 JAN 14 by Patricia Routley
Hello Rafael,
I have taken the liberty of opening a special file for "Bariloche Namuncura" and transferring your photos to that file. Now you can add photos and comments to the file direct. If you note any other distinguishing characteristics, do a comment and we will add them to the main page for the rose.
Reply #4 of 8 posted 26 JAN 14 by Margaret Furness
It would be good to have a file on "Contessa Gambarota" too. Why mythological, Rafael? Did the lady invent the title for herself?
Reply #5 of 8 posted 26 JAN 14 by rafael maino
Thank you Patricia and Margaret for your attention!!, tell me in what issue of HMF I can enter to look the files of "Namuncura" and "Contessa Gambarota".
About the mythological Contessa, nobody knows exactly if the lady invent the title, or was the people that knew her who gave to her the "Contessa" title, due to her strong and imposing personality. It is true that her surname was Gambarota, that mean in Italian "broken leg"; Ch. Q. Ritson say to me about it: ¡what an ugly name!!, I explain to him that it is very common in italian names (including the noble), ironic or pejoratives words. Fortunately I had one more worthy.....
Best regards,
Reply #6 of 8 posted 26 JAN 14 by Patricia Routley
You search for it just like any other rose. Go into Search / Lookup and ask for "Bariloche Namuncura".

Would you like us to open a file for "Contessa Gambarota"? If so, which rose do you call "Contessa Gambarota" please? The one in your comment of December 22, 2011? - or the rose in your June 18, 2012 comment?
Reply #7 of 8 posted 27 JAN 14 by rafael maino
Thank you, Patricia. The rose I call "Contessa Gambarota" is the one I post in june18, 2012. Te other one I post in my comment of December 22, 2011, is another mystery rose that I found near my house here at Península San Pedro, Bariloche, in a farm of a pioneer family of Swiss origin, whose name is Gelain, so, I put this name to the rose "Gelainia". About this rose I brought my concerns to Sangerhausen too, but no answer came to me to classify it. Thomas Havel, (Director of Sangerhausen Rosarium) who saw the photos told me that it seem Rosa l'heritierana, I look in HMF for this rose, and certainly have similar shape in general the plant, and may be the flower, but R. l'heritierana is more red, "Gelainia" is soft pink.
If you like to open a file for "Contessa Gambarota" and "Gelainia", I would be very grateful!

Another matter: I said in the first post that the rose HP "Bariloche Namuncura" was found by me and my friend Carolina, the fact is that the rose was found by Carolina, and she take me to see the rose, because she is a really enthusiastic beginner, that have an acute and perceptive eye to found special roses, and I was somewhat clumsy and careless in my comment, so I want to correct this error: the merit for find the rose was of Carolina Gutovnick .
Reply #8 of 8 posted 27 JAN 14 by Patricia Routley
I think I have added everything Rafael. Now if you need to add anything more, a comment in the individual files will be better. Well done for searching out and preserving these old roses.
most recent 28 DEC 13 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 26 DEC 13 by rafael maino
May be Francis Dubreuil?, first flower, young plant, unidentified Tea
Reply #1 of 5 posted 27 DEC 13 by Patricia Routley
The leaves seem more elongated than the 'Francis Dubreuil' in commerce.
Reply #2 of 5 posted 27 DEC 13 by rafael maino
Hello Patricia, thank you for your prompt response, I never saw F. Dubreuil, I don´t know nobody here in Argentina that have it, this plant I buy in a nursery in the Buenos Aires prov., unidentified, the plant is very young, I get it this winter, and it´s obviously a Tea, surprisingly it flower double dark velvet red (very little flower, but it is the first...), the most close I find it´s F.D., ¿?, do you suggest another possibility?, thank you again, best regards!!
Reply #3 of 5 posted 27 DEC 13 by Patricia Routley
I was thinking of the original 'Francis Dubreuil'. Have a look at Jedmar's Rosenzeitung 1896 picture which seems to have long leaves (if they belong to the pictured 'Francis Dubreuil'). As well see CybeRose's Gardening Illustrated 1906 black and white picture. Both pictures seem to show a scrolling bud.

I can't help any further with teas unfortunately - they do not grow well where I live. But there are other members who may be able to help you. In the meantime, take side-on photos of any hip, the pedicel and a leaf placed on your hand (for scale).
Reply #4 of 5 posted 27 DEC 13 by Margaret Furness
It would be wonderful if you have found the original (true) Francis Dubreuil. I'm told there weren't many dark red Teas. It might be worth comparing yours with Princesse de Sagan.
Best wishes for 2014,
Reply #5 of 5 posted 28 DEC 13 by rafael maino
Hello Margaret, thank you for your response, I shall keep under observation my rose, it is very young and the flower in the photo is the first she give, I compare with Princesse de Sagan (photos HMF) and my rose is very much dark and velvety red, and more double and of different shape I think ( and it´s the first one), and no fragrance. That make me think that could be the original F.D., according to the old descriptions that say that original F.D. have little or nothing of perfume. And in reference to the leaves, the original have long pointed leaves, so have mine, of bluish-gray green, as you can see in the photos. Sorry, I am very exited thinking my be I have found this controversial rose.... I must hope for the more development in the season, and continuous observing. I will post the novelty of growing, so we will see...
Best wishes for 2014 Margaret!!
PD: I put the photos in FB for Di Durston, and she think it is Francis Dubreuil...¿my be??, quizá, quizá, quizá.....
most recent 26 DEC 13 SHOW ALL
Initial post 15 SEP 13 by Viviane SCHUSSELE
Ce rosier m'a été vendu comme étant "Omar Khayyam", des amis de forum de roses ont des doutes,
qui cela peut-il être ?
Reply #1 of 2 posted 26 DEC 13 by rafael maino
I think this is not O. Khayyam, may be 'Kazanlik', or 'Quatre Saisons' (Rosa x damascena bifera), or 'Ispahan'
Reply #2 of 2 posted 26 DEC 13 by Viviane SCHUSSELE
Not "Quatre saisons", not "Ispahan" may be "Kanzanlk" Thank you so muche,
most recent 28 JUL 12 SHOW ALL
Initial post 27 JAN 12 by rafael maino
¿Can anyone suggest something about this rose?, found in Bariloche,Argentina, it cover almost all the roof of a house, as show in the photo, dark green glossy leaves, little fragrance, flower once spring-summer, The same rose it's in the enter of the house
Reply #1 of 25 posted 22 MAR 12 by bungalow1056
Hunch/Guess: that looks somewhat like 'New Dawn' given the pink blush tones on the younger blooms and the crazy sprawling habit. Those prickles look pretty serious too and ND is known for them. Even though the cultivar can rebloom, sometimes well, it often does not after a big show early in the season. New Dawn's fragrance can vary from light to moderate. It is also one of the most commonly planted roses in the world.
Reply #2 of 25 posted 24 MAR 12 by rafael maino
Thank you bungalow 1056 for your answer but it is not 'New Dawn', that I know very well, I have three plants of 'New Dawn' in my garden, and it's very common here in this zone, and at first glance it look the same, but at a close look, this rose have a different shape and colour, this have more yellowish undertones, the leaves are different too, even though wichurana variety, this have a more dense foliage. But I must say that the first time I saw this rose (from a distance), I thought it was 'New Dawn'. I took this photo in january, may be I must go and see again... Thank you any way for your interest.
Reply #3 of 25 posted 24 MAR 12 by bungalow1056
Ah. Now the mystery deepens :) I ran an advanced search here on HMF trying to select for a predominantly white, once blooming wichurana rambler. I got back 4 pages of results- fairly manageable. Did you try this? Some of the results look similar to the rose in your photos. Others are listings for historical roses that have no photo documentation. Good luck!
Reply #4 of 25 posted 27 MAR 12 by rafael maino
I was looking at the advanced search for Wichuranas, and I didn't find nothing similar, may be 'White New Dawn' ??, I was thinking may be it is not wichurana, ¿can be 'Lamarque'?, it is the only rose I find whit this size, and similar shape of the flower, and colour. I never see 'Lamarque', I only know it in books and HMF, so, I don't know how is the plant in general, and the leaves or prickles, If you know 'Lamarque', may be you can compare whit the photos I post, and say something about it. Thank you bungalow 1056
Reply #5 of 25 posted 27 MAR 12 by Sandie Maclean
Have you looked at Albertine? It can be pale pink to almost white or pale to deep apricot.
Reply #8 of 25 posted 28 MAR 12 by rafael maino
It is not 'Albertine', I have it in my garden, and this rose is almost totally white, and not so fragrant.
Reply #6 of 25 posted 28 MAR 12 by bungalow1056
Sandie's suggestion of Albertine is a good possibility.

I took a closer look at the photos. Is the large shrub near the #32 address plate the same one that is climbing over the top of the house/structure?
Reply #7 of 25 posted 28 MAR 12 by rafael maino
Yes,it is the same rose, people that live in the house said that prune this rose whit a chain saw.
Reply #9 of 25 posted 28 MAR 12 by bungalow1056
I am not sursprised that it takes a chainsaw to prune that massive plant! I did some searching here on HMF and came up with two possibilities, both sorted from several searches that only included roses with photos that are ramblers. Emile Fortpaule and Queen of The Belgians were the best matches I could find.
Reply #10 of 25 posted 28 MAR 12 by Aurelija
The blooms look a bit like Mme. Alfred Cariere, but canes of mine are virtually thornless and certainly do not have the reddish prickles.
Reply #11 of 25 posted 29 MAR 12 by rafael maino
I think the most similar wichurana I find in HMF is Emile Fortepaule, but I never see this rose!, and it seem not to be so common, in HMF there is only two photos. And I don't think this rose can be an Ayrshire, like Queen of the Belgians (that have only two photos too). And certainly it is not Mme. Alfred Carriere, I have this rose, may be the colour and the shape and size of the flower is similar, but Mme A. Carriere have the petals more subtle and fragrant (with different and more strong fragrance), the leaves too are different in shape, colour and size. But ¿what you think about 'Lamarque'?, I am thinking about the size of the plant. I found this rose growing in another houses here in Bariloche, Patagonia Argentina, but nobody knows from where it come. I have taken cuttings to grow in my garden....I have a big garden... but, any way, I must think very well where to put this monster....
Reply #12 of 25 posted 29 MAR 12 by Cà Berta
You may be interest in comparing your unknown rose with Garisenda, a hybrid wichurana bred by Gaetano Bonfiglioli e Figlio in 1911. As you can see in the information about this firm, they had intense commercial relationships with South America, in particular with Argentina where Enrico (a grandson) lived for a while.
Reply #14 of 25 posted 29 MAR 12 by rafael maino
¡Bello il tuo giardino, Cá Berta!!, molto simile al mio qui a Bariloche (un po selvaggio peró,...all uso diceva nella mia famiglia...), now, as I can see you have 'Garisenda', so you must know her very well, for me it's the first time I hear about this rose, thank you for expanding my knowledge!, and it is probably that Bonfiglioli nipote has brought this rose to Argentina, ¿can you post some more photos? (if you have it), because there are only few, and it is not so common this rose I think. And may be, this rose that grows here a Bariloche is Grisenda. Here there is a lot of italian immigrants with close connection with Italy, and it's possible they grow this italian rose from Bologna. E scusatemi se io non scrivo bene ne italiano ne inglese, da troppo tempo nella mia famiglia si parla spagnolo.
Reply #15 of 25 posted 29 MAR 12 by Cà Berta
Hello Rafael,
I have a Garisenda but, for various reasons, it is still a little thing!! For this reason I have no photos of it, up to now. You can see more photos of this rose in Google by using the words Garisenda and rose as entries. There is a large and beautiful plant in Sacramento Historic Rose Cemetery.
The firm Bonfiglioli bred roses and introduced also many roses bred by Massimiliano Lodi; some are famous (Variegata di Bologna, Clementina Carbonieri); Garisenda is known; others are almost lost (Ricordo di Giosuè Carducci, Ricordo di Geo Chavez, Stella di Bologna) are still “surviving” in Sangerhausen; others (La Carmen, Luigi Galvani, Principessa di Napoli, Isabeau, Italia) apparently are lost.
Who knows? They may still be in some place in Argentina!!
P.S. il tuo italiano è sicuramente molto meglio del mio spagnolo (=zero)!
Reply #17 of 25 posted 30 MAR 12 by rafael maino
Ciao Bruna,
Mille grazie!! per il vostro generoso contributo. Now I would like to continue with my observation of this rose, may be we will be able to arrive at some conclusion about it. I will go and have a look now, ( I hope they have no used the chainsaw yet...)
Reply #16 of 25 posted 29 MAR 12 by bungalow1056
Reply #18 of 25 posted 30 MAR 12 by rafael maino
Thank you Bungalow 1056, there is not final conclusion yet, but we will arrive to it
Reply #20 of 25 posted 30 MAR 12 by Cà Berta
It looks also like Docteur W.Van Fleet, the rose that gave New Dawn as a repeating sport. DWVF is also the parent of a few other roses whose description may fit your unknown one.
Reply #22 of 25 posted 2 APR 12 by rafael maino
P.D. It is the same variety of the first post in december, as I said before, this rose grows here in several places
Reply #23 of 25 posted 2 APR 12 by rafael maino
This is the same variety that grows in the house of a friend, it looks different (the flowers) than that of the first post in december,I think this is because are autumn flowers, these photos I take today, the other plant (posted in december) has ben pruned with chainsaw, and it is in flower too, but in the top of the plant. This one is more accessible.
Reply #24 of 25 posted 2 APR 12 by bungalow1056
Thanks for the additional photos Rafael. I had also thought of Dr. Van Fleet and see that others have the same idea. The ARS Rose Encyclopedia describes Van Fleet as a large flowered climber, moderately sweet scented with long, tipped elegant buds, flesh pink blooms that age to pale pink, bronze green early foliage and wavy edged flowers. It blooms in a large flush then only sporadically later in the season.
Reply #25 of 25 posted 26 JUL 12 by Charles Quest-Ritson
Your 'not New Dawn' rose is 'Auguste Gervais' [Barbier, 1918].
Reply #26 of 25 posted 26 JUL 12 by rafael maino
Thank you for your reply, I am honored by your interest, Mr. Charles Quest Ritson. I would like to know about the other mystery roses that I have posted in this site, and in the article I write for WFRS' Heritage Roses . I never got a reply about it.
Reply #27 of 25 posted 27 JUL 12 by Charles Quest-Ritson
It was the article you wrote for the WFRS newsletter that I saw – I do not follow discussions on the helpmefind website – but I looked online for your e-mail address (not mentioned in the newsletter) and found the same pictures of 'not New Dawn' on helpmefind.

I regret that I do not know so much about Tea roses as do people who live in warmer climates than mine in France, so I fear that I cannot help you with your other 'lost and found' roses. The book by the Australian ladies is useful, but it is no more than a beginning – what we all need is an exhaustive study of 19th-century Teas and Noisettes in every corner of the world, though it would be difficult to find a publisher nowadays.

If you wish to contact me directly, my e-mail address is – and I understand Spanish, if you prefer to write in your own language.

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Reply #28 of 25 posted 28 JUL 12 by Patricia Routley
< I do not follow discussions on the helpmefind website.

What a pity.
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