HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
rafael maino
most recent 29 NOV 14 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 29 NOV 14 by RoseNutButStillLearning
Gorgeous, Rafael--absolutely beautiful. I love that you included most of the plant, and blossoms in many stages of development.
Reply #1 of 1 posted 29 NOV 14 by rafael maino
Thank You!!!, I will post more photos of the plant, now it is full of buds, it will open next days!!!
most recent 16 JUN 14 SHOW ALL
Initial post 4 JUN 14
* This post deleted by user *
Reply #1 of 22 posted 4 JUN 14 by Jay-Jay
Could this be Crépuscule?
Reply #2 of 22 posted 5 JUN 14 by rafael maino
¿or Safrano?, I think the plant it's not so vigorous and climber as Crépuscule,(and this plant it's probably more than 40 years old), and not so floriferous, and the colour it's not so intense yellow-apricot. I post now a photo of the plant, that is more or less 190 cm hight.
Thank you for your prompt interest Jay-Jay
Reply #5 of 22 posted 5 JUN 14 by Jay-Jay
As for the plant and this colour of the flowers: not Crépuscule.
Leaves and new twigs put me on the wrong leg.
I'm not acquainted with Saffrano. Most Teas don't survive our climate/winters.
Reply #3 of 22 posted 5 JUN 14 by rafael maino
Thank you Jay-Jay for your interest
Reply #4 of 22 posted 5 JUN 14 by Margaret Furness
My first reaction was Safrano, although it's not usually that pink in my garden. Your first group of photos has been deleted. If you add them again, perhaps Billy Teabag or Rockhill would comment. I'm not an expert.
Reply #6 of 22 posted 5 JUN 14 by rafael maino
I don't know what happened with the photos and the first post ¿?. I post again: found rose in Bariloche, Patagonia, Argentina,Tea or HT, height 190cm x width 120cm, leaves brilliant green, purplish new grown. Flowers medium to large, cupped, mild tea fragrance, yellow- apricot, soft pink shading, bloom in flushes throughout the season.
Reply #7 of 22 posted 8 JUN 14 by billy teabag
Lovely rose! Does it have prickles?
Reply #8 of 22 posted 9 JUN 14 by rafael maino
Hi Billy, it's a beautiful rose, indeed. It have few prickles on old canes. I have no photos of the canes, I will try to get some. The plant grows in a particular garden of an elegant and historical house, near of my house here in Bariloche, the owners are not at this time of the year, I'll try with the housekeeper, I think will be no problem. The season is good for this, very rainy and cold end of autumn, although the rose does not lose the leaves, any way I guess I can better observe the canes.
Reply #9 of 22 posted 9 JUN 14 by billy teabag
Sounds like it's a splendid winter rose!
I asked about the prickles because your photos remind me of 'G. Nabonnand' which is usually thornless (except for sharp little prickles on the backs of the leaves).
Do you have any correctly named 'G. Nabonnand' plants to compare it with? 'G. Nabonnand' is often sold under the wrong name - Jean Ducher.
Reply #10 of 22 posted 11 JUN 14 by Carolina V. Gutovnik
Hello Billy, I am a friend of Rafael.
Do you have any idea of when began this confusion with G. Nabonnand and Jean Ducher?
Do you think the pictures of both are corectly named? Because there is no "as in commerce" file of G. Nabonnand...
Could you describe the differences between them? They seem so alike I undertand a possible confusion.

Thank you,
Carolina Gutovnik
Reply #11 of 22 posted 12 JUN 14 by billy teabag
Hi Carolina
To the best of my knowledge, the original 'Jean Ducher' is not in commerce and is possibly extinct, even though you can still see roses labelled 'Jean Ducher' in many nurseries and gardens, books and websites. (This rose is invariably 'G. Nabonnand'.)
If you look at the 'Jean Ducher' entry here on HMF, the only photos of the original 'Jean Ducher' are the black and white photo from Gardening Illustrated 1893 posted by CybeRose and the portrait from The Garden 1879 that I just added. All the recent photos there are of 'G. Nabonnand'.
I believe Nancy Steen was the first person to put the name 'Jean Ducher' on 'G. Nabonannd' when she found it, un-named in a Remuera (Auckland, New Zealand) garden, and from there it was sent to England under the name 'Jean Ducher'.
After it got to England, it was distributed all around the world, first by L. Arthur Wyatt, from his 'Lost and Found" Nursery, and then by Peter Beales Roses and others. It was sent to Sangerhausen from England at this time too (1960s/ 1970s).
The two roses have many significant differences.
You can see from the 1879 portrait that the original 'Jean Ducher' was a very prickly rose, whereas 'G. Nabonnand' is virtually thornless, apart from the prickles under the leaves.
'Jean Ducher' was a full, globular rose with many petals. 'G. Nabonnand' is generally much less full - although it does occasionally double and treble its petals.
'Jean Ducher' was a good dry weather rose but wasn't great in wet weather - the blooms balled and spoiled - while 'G, Nabonnand' is reasonably unfazed by cold, wet weather. It's one of the great winter roses in warmer parts of the world, producing some of its most exquisite blooms in the coldest months.
The easiest way to decide which rose you have is to check for prickles. If prickles are very rare on the stems, it's definitely not the real 'Jean Ducher'.
Reply #12 of 22 posted 12 JUN 14 by Patricia Routley
That is a wonderfully clear posting Billy.
Have you ever seen hips similar to Rafael's with the elongated base on G. Nabonnand?
Mine were all round. But I suspect that 'G. Nabonnand' could produce elongated hips, because I have seen both round and elongated on 'Safrano'. I've added photos of hips to both roses.

Raphael and Carolina - your rose seems to have the colour of 'G. Nabonnand' and not 'Safrano'.
It has prickles (as does 'Safrano' which has a few); whereas 'G. Nabonand' is almost thornless.
I would photograph the prickles.
Regards, Patricia
Reply #13 of 22 posted 12 JUN 14 by billy teabag
Spherical hips like the ones you posted are more typical of the mature hips on my plant Patricia, but they are a bit more variable when unripe.
The rose in Rafael's photos seems to have a smooth pedicel - another reason to eliminate 'Safrano', which has a glandular pedicel.
Reply #14 of 22 posted 13 JUN 14 by Patricia Routley
Thank you Billy
Reply #15 of 22 posted 13 JUN 14 by rafael maino
Hi Billy, I could take new photos of the canes, and hips (not mature yet). As you can see, there are some prickles in some canes, and in others not. I post a photo of the leaves (back), it have little red shark prickles.
Reply #16 of 22 posted 15 JUN 14 by Patricia Routley
I wonder if your rose could be 'Reve d'Or'. That has a few prickles, for me, mostly on the old wood and it has a smooth pedicel. However your foundling seems to have fewer petals and the height of 190cm seems much lower than 'Reve d'Or' is said to be. (Has it been pruned lower?) The only thing that I am unable to confirm is that lovely pink colour of the foundling's canes. Can anybody else comment on the cane colour of 'Reve d'Or'? I'll add some photos to 'Reve d'Or'.
Reply #20 of 22 posted 16 JUN 14 by rafael maino
Hello Patricia, I add some photos of 'Reve D'Or' that I take last spring in Venado Tuerto, Buenos Aires province, Argentina, (I don't have this rose), and as I could see it's a huge climbing rose, that it is not the case of the rose I found here, (it grows no more than 2m, and it's an old plant, and as the housekeeper told me, not or little pruned). I give to this rose study name "La Torre"
Reply #17 of 22 posted 15 JUN 14 by billy teabag
Yes! Thanks for these photos Raphael.
Looks like we can eliminate 'G. Nabonnand' from the list of possibilities.
Does this rose have a study name?
Would it be possible to make an entry for this rose on HMF so that more photos can be added over the seasons? If someone is able to positively identify it as 'Reve d'Or', or some other rose, the entry can be merged, but any details and history of this particular rose will still be recorded there.
Reply #18 of 22 posted 16 JUN 14 by rafael maino
Study name "La Torre"
Reply #19 of 22 posted 16 JUN 14 by Patricia Routley
Superb name. Superb photo.
We'll make a special file for this foundling and will transfer your photos.
If you have any other foundlings in the future (we know you will have), perhaps it might be better to open a file first - just email us. Unfortunately we are unable to transfer these comments and they will submerge in the bottomless pit of 'What is This', we are afraid.
Reply #21 of 22 posted 16 JUN 14 by rafael maino
Thank you Patricia!!, as you can notice, the place where the rose grow it's one of the most beautiful places here at Bariloche, it's an historic house, the pity is that recently a several old roses growing there where removed and replaced by Iceberg and La Sevillana!!!, (garden-designers ooooops!)
Reply #22 of 22 posted 16 JUN 14 by Jay-Jay
You might cut and paste this thread as the first reference for this rose and name HMF as the source.
Reply #23 of 22 posted 16 JUN 14 by Carolina V. Gutovnik
Thank you all of you!
It is wonderfull how much I can learn from you and this page! We will be adding new pictures as the season goes on. I agree judging by the pictures that this rose is not a strong climber like 'Reve d'Or'...
This rose was found by Rafael, he was kind enough to show it to me this autumn and just helped him with the cuttings.
Kind regards, Carolina
most recent 27 JAN 14 SHOW ALL
Initial post 22 DEC 11 by rafael maino
Does anyone know this rose I found abandoned in an old farm in Bariloche, Patagonia, Argentina, bloom only once, spring-summer, look like Alba, or Gallica, or Damask??, 6-7 cm.diameter, fragrant, and totally healthy, she grows and flower at the worst conditions. Now she grows in my garden and she look so happy!!
Reply #1 of 7 posted 8 MAY 12 by Grntrz5
Rafael, does this rose re-bloom? From your pictures it looks thornless at the top and very thorny on the lower canes. Your rose looks very similar to Therese Bugnet. That rose has fall color, does your's change in cooler weather?

I had just visited someone else's garden and saw a "Therese Bugnet" that stood just over 5 feet, you might have better growing conditions than we have, but take a look at some other pictures of "Therese Bugnet" here at HMF, or online. Those red-brown canes and that lilac-pink color of the blooms looks so similar. Hope you can figure out your unknown rose.
Reply #3 of 7 posted 5 JUL 12 by rafael maino
It flowers only once, mid summer, and it is very different to T. Bugnet, that I have it, it have not rugosa leaves, it look more like an Alba, so the prickles and the way that grows the canes
Reply #2 of 7 posted 5 JUL 12 by Cristina Macleod 'Rose Garden
Hola Rafael,

Gallica, espinas muy grandes y el follaje no me parece.
Alba: el crecimiento generalmente es erguido y el follaje tiene tonalidad grisacea.
Pero de todos modos es una muy linda rosa.
Reply #4 of 7 posted 5 JUL 12 by rafael maino
Hola Cristina, el crecimiento es erguido, en forma de mata, con ramas curvas, que llegan hasta 2m, los aculeos son parecidos a los de la alba 'Céleste', también sus hojas, de un verde grisaceo,(no tanto como 'Céleste') opaco, generalmente de 7 folíolos, en la fotos se ven más verdes (y algo cubiertos por las cenizas del volcán), voy a tratar de poner más fotos.
Reply #5 of 7 posted 5 JUL 12 by rafael maino
¡Es una bella y muy noble rosa, resiste el abandono de años, muy vigorosa, y no la ataca ninguna enfermedad, y en el otoño sus hojas se vuelven amarillas antes de caer, eso también la asemeja a las Alba, y de un delicado perfume!!
Reply #6 of 7 posted 27 JAN 14 by Patricia Routley
Photos reassigned to "Gelainia" as requested.
Reply #7 of 7 posted 27 JAN 14 by rafael maino
Thank you Patricia
most recent 27 JAN 14 SHOW ALL
Initial post 18 JUN 12 by rafael maino
what rose is this, it grows like gallica,or centifolia, flowers double, only once mid summer, strong fragrance, 250 x250 cm, suckers all around.Prickles like gallica. Found in an old farm in Bariloche, Patagonia, Argentina
Reply #1 of 2 posted 27 JAN 14 by Patricia Routley
All photos reassigned into "Contessa Gambarota" as requested.
Reply #2 of 2 posted 27 JAN 14 by rafael maino
Hi Patricia, I add some new photos of "Contessa Gambarota" to the file
Thank you for your help!
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