HELPMEFIND PLANTS COMMERCIAL NON-COMMERCIAL RESOURCES EVENTS PEOPLE RATINGS
|
|
|
-
-
|
Lineage:
"Origin and Breeding Controlled pollination. Seed parent ‘New Dawn’ x pollen parent ((‘Chaucer’ x ‘Aloha’) x (‘Iceberg’ x “unnamed seedling”))"
Ref: http://pericles.ipaustralia.gov.au/pbr_db/docs/2001265.doc
|
REPLY
|
|
I suspect but can't confirm the 'Iceberg' shown in this lineage is incorrect and should be the more common floridunda version 1958.
|
REPLY
|
|
What was it before? I assumed the 'Iceberg' in the lineage I posted would automatically be entered as the common Kordes, 1958, version.
|
REPLY
|
|
It was entered as Kordes 2002 florists version, which is highly unlikely since this rose was introduced in 1991.
http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.36436
|
REPLY
|
|
Its essentially just New Dawn x Graham Thomas. The way the parentage is listed is really odd. Its hard to fathom the breeder followed the same pathway as Austin did, lol. But yeah. Definitely the well-known Iceberg.
|
REPLY
|
|
The notes in the description of this rose should be updated to say that the pollen parent was most likely Graham Thomas. The parentage is "New Dawn X Graham Thomas," as proposed by Michael Garhart. ~Benaminh
|
REPLY
|
|
By the same breeder, Sonia Rykel follows the same pattern. Yet, two other roses by the same breeder simply say 'Graham Thomas'.
|
REPLY
|
|
I request that the HMF admins just add a note at the bottom of the description tab stating that Graham Thomas is the likely pollen parent versus changing the official parentage hot link. Saves us time having to look at all the progeny of Charles Austin (Chaucer X Aloha) and Iceberg to reach the same conclusion. ~B.
|
REPLY
|
|
Done. I know you will also be using the PARENTAGE TREE in LINEAGE
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#11 of 12 posted
21 DEC 21 by
 jedmar
|
The Breeder confirmed in a personal message that 'Graham Thomas' is the pollen parent of 'Martine Guillot and 'Sonia Rykiel'
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#16 of 12 posted
23 DEC 21 by
Duchesse
|
Pleased to hear this. Martine and Sonia are doing great in my garden.
|
REPLY
|
-
-
|
Continuing a thread....
Dear Simon, 'Paul Noel' came to me named 'Paul Transon'. Originally from Melville Nursery in Western Australia. I was first alerted that it may be 'Paul Noel' by Anne Belovich's address in El Cerrito. California wherein she said "Paul Noel is so strongly quilled that once you see it, you won’t make the same mistake...... those absolutely incredible quilled petals." My rose has those exact same long slender branches of Charles Quest-Ritson's ....<i>Encyclopedia</i> page 298 photo and is certainly more quilled than my other wich's. I am convinced it is 'Paul Noel'.
I know of no Australian nursery offering it as such. (I do wish the Australian nurseries would come on board with HelpMeFind. They are surely losing money by not doing so. Aussies - persuade your local nurseries).
Simon, You can try your luck with the nurseries, however there is confusion:
Leontine Gervias – often confused with ‘Francis Juranville’. Refer Quest-Ritson-171
Francois Juranville – often confused with Paul Noel. Anne Belovich El Cerrioto address
Paul Transon – often confused with Paul Noel. Refer Quest-Ritson-172
Patricia Routley – often confused with everything!!!!
I can certainly send cuttings if legal. I have it growing over a very sick walnut tree and it cascades its branches straight down. I have noted it rooting where it hits the ground. There is an occasional welcome flowering in autumn, but nothing to speak of really. The picture is pinker than it should be and doesn't show the tints of yellows from the pollen parent, in the center.
Patricia
|
REPLY
|
|
Thanks Patricia. Why am I not surprised there is confusion!!!
I would love some cuttings and at the same time I'll try and find a plant a plant of 'Paul Transon' so I can grow them side-by-side to see what, if any, differences there may be. I need to talk to you at some stage to find out what needs to be done to send plants or at least cuttings to WA because I have some China seedlings coming through that I think you guys over there might be interested in.
Thanks again,
Simon
|
REPLY
|
|
Well thank you Simon. That is really lovely of you. However, I am really a born-and dyed-in-the-wool old-rose person. Whilst I now have new space for roses, I must conserve my declining energies for the old roses which come my way. They give me enormous interest. I'll leave the newies to you young'uns.
I can send eastwards, cuttings from Western Australia. Not sure about east, then south. Will work on that one.
|
REPLY
|
|
We're hoping to be able to plant a limited number of ramblers at Ruston's (most of those previously there have gone). If we can, I'm going to suggest we plant unidentified foundlings, and some whose names need correcting; eg Paul Noel ("Not Paul Transon"), Aglaia ("Not Thisbe"), "Brownlow Hill Rambler" ("Not Mme Alice Garnier").
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#4 of 8 posted
14 JUN 10 by
jedmar
|
The confusion is not only in Australia: 'Paul Noël', 'Paul Transon', 'François Juranville' are all mixed up over here in Europe, too. I keep posting photos from various provenances. We need a set of characteristic details by which identification will be possible for all.
|
REPLY
|
|
Yes. I have stood in front of wich ramblers and thought, where do I start looking?
Is Dan Russo a member? or I recall Charles Quest-Ritson offered to help in some way.
|
REPLY
|
|
Too add to this, I thought I'd throw this into the fray... Patricia, I have emailed you tonight with this information, however, I felt it was relevant to this discussion as well. The cuttings you sent all struck and have been flowering on-and-off for the past 6 months or so. I have sent a plant down to Margaret for her to check as well. The flowers of my ones down here in Tasmania are much lighter than the photo you've put up showing none of that fuschia M. Tillier colour. They are very light, almost white, with a peach coloured blush all over as the photos of 'Paul Transon' here show. I haven't got a photo yet but will put some up when they start flowering next season. It is a beautiful looking flower that hate sthe rain here. It looks like my milder climate makes this rose look completely different to yours despite them being clones of each other. maybe some years on them will make them look different as well. It's all very interesting though.
|
REPLY
|
|
Hello Simon, I agree - most interesting. When we see such differences as this in different climates, it makes one wonder how on earth we can ever hope to identify misnamed roses.
I see you are on the north of Tasmania, and I am on the south of Western Australia. Without looking it up, I'll take a wild guess and say I am probably about 10 degrees latitude north of you. That - and different soil has to make a difference. I must admit I have never seen my flowers "almost white" and I have had it for about eleven years. I really look forward to your photos. you certainly seems to have more repeat flowering than I have seen. .
I think the bloom arrangement is the characteristic to look for here. Are the petals round and arranged in an imbricated fashion? Or are they quilled as though rolled around a pencil. I think mine were more quilled.
|
REPLY
|
|
Further to my initial Comment,
I have this morning read all the references for ‘Paul Noel’ and “clusters” was often mentioned in the early references.
My plant grows like the photos from Ametiszt, Mashamcl, and Ron Harris with the canes dropping straight down, and one flower at intervals down the cane. My plant certainly has reddish pedicels, even in shade. I will try to take photos while it is still flowering, but a small broken bone in my foot might make this impossible. (Judy, did you take photos of my plant that you can add?)
|
REPLY
|
-
-
Initial post
13 JAN 06 by
Cass
|
Stiff, awkward, horizontal grower. This is not a shrub, as it requires support to get off the ground. An odd clone of this rose or perhaps oddly budded. Scent carries on the air. Fall flush really is good. Lovely in the Historic Rose Garden of the Old Sacramento City Cemetery.
|
REPLY
|
|
I have to second this post. Buff Beauty has been a rather troubled plant for me. It started out well and sent out two big new canes in its second year, but since then has only produced new growth from on top the existing canes. These canes have grown heavy and are as flexible as rebar, but are very productive with flowers. I wish it would produce new growth from the base without my having to whack back the existing canes to induce it. That said, I love the flowers, especially in the cool spring and fall weather when the colors are a rich orange-apricot. Definitely one of my favorite roses.
|
REPLY
|
|
I have to amend my comment from May of this year. I decided to lavish my Buff Beauty with more water and fertilizer this year and the results quite startled me. The first flush of bloom was as usual, starting around April 20 and carrying on for about five weeks. I dead-headed the flowers, fertilized and watered heavily and BOOM! The plant has thrown out new growth all over the place and sent out a several whopping new canes. Its second flush of blooms started to open this week and there are probably twice as many buds this time as in April/May. There are a couple of huge panicles of buds (probably 20 - 30) and scores of the regular clusters (of about 5 - 9 buds), and the flowers are bigger, too. I am really surprised and delighted. At this rate, the fall flush of bloom should be beyond spectacular.
I guess I've learned that BB likes a bit more water and food than some other roses. I have Radox Bouquet planted nearby and it has received the same treatment. RB has been very productive this year, but hardly the transformed rose BB is. All I can say is WOW!
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#3 of 7 posted
14 JUL 09 by
Cass
|
You've confirmed my impression of many roses raised in the UK: they love water.
|
REPLY
|
|
Late comer to this thread. Here, in Australia, my 'Buff Beauty' grows as a shrub. Its habit is typically hybrid musk-like in that it sends up canes from basal growth that grows up and then arches over. It doesn't get much water where it is either and needs to compete with a small tree adjacent to it for what water it gets. Terrfic health. Mine is grafted onto multiflora.
|
REPLY
|
|
thank you for that review. The new canes that you speak of, are they rigid, can they be trained to an incline to encourage lateral breaks or does this rose just produce flowers at the end of rigid canes. And can you speak of the fragrance, I'm afraid I don't know what a 'musk' frangrance is. If it's a funky fragrance I might get a revolt from my operations manager indoors :-)
Peter
|
REPLY
|
|
Flexible. I just let mine grow and arch as it chose - see photo 351278 of it hiding a tank 4 November. There are a few horizontal wires but mostly it is self-supporting. In good conditions it can use a lot of space.
The hybrid musks were bred to be good garden roses. The group name isn't a good indicator because they weren't bred from the musk rose. The scent isn't one anyone is likely to object to.
|
REPLY
|
|
Thank you for that reply, it's very helpful
Peter
|
REPLY
|
-
-
Initial post
15 MAY 13 by
goncmg
|
Just got this one as a sub from Heirloom...............actually hate striped roses and put it on my alt list as a dare and wow, joke on me...............so, what am I to expect? How sickly is this one in humid 6a Columbus? Is it really striped?Does it set hips? Is there any reason I should keep it and not "gift" it away?
|
REPLY
|
|
I don't have this rose, but it seems, that yes it is striped. It did not have consistently good reports in New Zealand and I suspect that it may not be healthy in your humid climate. According to the Australian patent, the hips are medium to large and pitcher shaped. There are a few more references to be read now.
|
REPLY
|
|
I consider O & L to be a gimick. I have never seen one that was not a puny, unattractive specimen. You might want to try a rigorous fertilizer regimen, to bring out its' best growth and color.
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#3 of 15 posted
16 MAY 13 by
goncmg
|
Thanks Nastarana and Patricia! Yeah, I figured this one would be a "dud" and I'll see what I can do with it.....why I listed it as a sub when I don't even LIKE striped roses is beyond me, guess I wanted to tempt the fates. Maybe it will surprise me, I will put it on the same "medicine" schedule that Soleil d'Or and Golden Showers get: a little spritz of Rose Pride each and everyday.....
|
REPLY
|
|
I grow it in Tasmania, Australia, with no care at all... it's a tall strong plant.
|
REPLY
|
|
It was very good in my sister's garden in the Adelaide Hills - zone 9b, Mediterranean climate with dry summers. Nice effect with the burgundy leaves.
|
REPLY
|
|
It was a dawg in my San Diego garden. It was the first rose I ever shovel pruned ... and I still have no regret. I do like and still grow other McGredy roses, but this one .... not for me.
Smiles,
Lyn
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#7 of 15 posted
1 MAY 16 by
LaurelZ
|
Can you be more specific about why you did not like it? I saw it in a nursery, and I am posting. It looks ok, its not flopping. The foliage, although I did not get a shot looked very attractive and shiny. It appears that Weeks has reclassified Oranges and Lemons as a shurb rose.
|
REPLY
|
|
Sorry to be so late responding ...
In my experience, roses are regional. 'Oranges and Lemons' just did not like my San Diego climate. That does not necessarily mean that it will not do well for you.
When I moved to the mountains of northern California, roses that did exceptionally well for me in San Diego did not like the climate up here. Often the success of a rose depends upon where you are gardening.
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#10 of 15 posted
4 JUL 16 by
LaurelZ
|
thank you, but it was sold out. It has nice looking leaves.
|
REPLY
|
|
'shovel pruned' ?
hilarious
|
REPLY
|
|
It's not a bad rose. Blooms well. Color is nice. Survives decently. Average health.
The bad part is the plant architecture, which does not fit into any practical idea. It is not quite a pillar. It is not a shrub or floribunda. It's very floppy. It can be grown decently inside a pillar structure, where it can sort of flop over the top.
|
REPLY
|
|
I'll add to this...I grew this one when it first came out. In my experience it was a very disease resistant stripe, very bright. However, the blooms were small, you couldn't really cut them as they aren't really on long enough stems, and it throws these giant arching canes. I don't know if it would grow better as a sorta-climber or what. It was just odd and awkward, not necessarily bad.
|
REPLY
|
|
The first time I saw a picture of this rose I fell in love and had to have it. I adore striped roses. Floribundas don't grow so well in my garden so I expected to have to put up with extreme blackspot for a couple of years then remove a half dead plant. But not so. It is tolerably healthy with me and flowers on and off all season, never putting on a big display but a continual one. The dark coloured foliage against the flowers adds another dimension to its appeal. However my only criticism is that when out of flower it is a rather unattractive leggy shrub, so I grow plenty of other plants around it and ignore it to the best of my ability when not in bloom. Never growing very high, by the end of the season it just about manages to get 1 metre tall.
|
REPLY
|
Reply
#13 of 15 posted
8 APR 18 by
LaurelZ
|
I was able to buy one and I find it to rapid growing, but not leggy. The flowers are small, but don't sag. I suggest maybe its not getting enough sun light or the soil is poor. I also suggest pruning overly long canes to encourage more wide growth.
|
REPLY
|
|
It hates the cool wet summers here, if the flowers weren't so striking I wouldn't grow it.
|
REPLY
|
|
|
