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Darrell
most recent 31 JUL SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 26 JUL 09 by Darrell
RogersRoses, which sells 'Le Pactole', states that this rose grows from 2.5 to 5 feet. That coincides with my own plant. I can find no source that claims this rose is a climbing tea. One old 19th century source even calls it a dwarf plant. Perhaps there is a climbing variety of 'Le Pactole', but, again, the few sources that mention this rose do not refer to it as such.
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Reply #1 of 11 posted 26 JUL 09 by jedmar
You are certainly right; there is no way for 'Le Pactole' to climb 6 meters. This is an error.
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Reply #2 of 11 posted 19 JUL by scvirginia
Neither 6 meters, nor a climbing rose, but 'Le Pactole' does get large in California, and was reported as being kept to 9-10 feet with occasional pruning at the Sacramento Cemetery on the Antique Roses Forum- here is a link to a photo of 2 'LP' planted together in Sacramento (with 'Cécile Brunner' in front):
http://www.justourpictures.com/roses/lepactole_CB.html
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Reply #3 of 11 posted 20 JUL by jedmar
Impressive!
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Reply #4 of 11 posted 22 JUL by scvirginia
Yes, indeed!

I think 'Le Pactole' was dismissed as a contender for being "Yallum Park Cream" because it was thought to be too small.

I do see similarities, though it's hard to say if they might be the same. 'LP' seems to be variable color-wise... not just the flowers being more ivory in some gardens and pale yellow elsewhere, but also the foliage and canes (more purplish in some places, more green in others).

But I don't think it's too small... I'd expect 'LP' would get quite large in Oz with maturity.

Virginia
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Reply #5 of 11 posted 23 JUL by Patricia Routley
Virginia, I will reply further in "Yallum Park Cream".
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Reply #6 of 11 posted 29 JUL by Patricia Routley
1893 The Rose (Ellwanger)
p269. No. 539. Le Pactole dwf. or mod. T. 'Madame Pean'. From Lamarque x Yellow Tea. Very pale yellow, beautiful buds.

From the above reference, it would seem that 'Le Pactole' was introduced by Pean-Sylvain. Would anybody have access to a Pean-Sylvain catalogue for any description?

I feel that the original 'Le Pactole' might have been a small bush. See refs
1843 p338 - small bushes. This ref is for 'Madame de Chalonge' (?France)
1844 p97 - dwarf habit (Pennsylvania, U.S.)
1848 p154 - growth moderate (Waltham Cross, U.K.)
1864 p142 - less vigorous habit (London, U.K.)
1871 - [bloom] small (London, U.K.)
1880 p76 - medium-size [bloom]. This ref is for 'Madame de Chalonge' (Germany)
1898 p19 - low growing. (Cannes, France)

Does anybody know the provenance of the 'Le Pactole's in America? Do they descend from the Sierra Nevada foundling?

There have been so many 'Narcisse' and similar roses that I am quite confused. In trying to make sense of them, I list a few roses in chronological order:
<1826 Narcisse Laffay, China Bengale, or Tea.
<1831 Narcisse Unknown. Tea. Milk-white with flesh. [Refer Old Roses: The Master List 2007, p473]
<1836 Narcisse Unknown. Noisette. Yellowish white [Refer Old Roses: The Master List 2007, p473]
<1837 Le Pactole Miellez. Noisette or Tea.
1845 Narcisse Genest. Noisette.
1845 Narcisse Mansais. Noisette or Tea [listed with Enfant de Lyon and apparently similar to Le Pactole]
<1853 Narcisse Avoux & Crozy. Tea. [or Noisette?]
1854 Louise de Savoie Damaizin. Tea.
1858 Enfant de Lyon Avoux & Crozy. Tea [or Noisette?]
<1885 Marechal Beauregard. [not on HelpMeFind. refer Le Pactole 1893 ref]
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Reply #7 of 11 posted 29 JUL by scvirginia
Not to be difficult, but I think it's quite possible for a Tea-Noisette to be dwarf in England, but grow to a substantial size in sunnier locales. This seems especially likely with 'Le Pactole' which- I've been told- is a slower grower than most Teas.

I seem to recall that 'Le Pactole' in the U.S. hails from a rose found by Fred Boutin in California, but I hope someone else can chime in to verify or correct my recollection.

It seems to me that if there were really that many different pale yellow Teas, Noisettes, and/or Tea-Noisettes called 'Narcisse', that catalogues would specify which is which. Since I have not seen that, my guess is that there really weren't seven different 'Narcisse' roses, just more confusion than usual about who bred/ introduced the one or two that did exist. Not much help there- sorry.

Virginia

PS Do you think 'Marechal Beauregard' might be a corruption of 'Maréchal Bugeaud', even though that wasn't a light yellow Tea?
http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.44525
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Reply #8 of 11 posted 29 JUL by Andrew from Dolton
'Blush Noisette' grows less than 1 metre tall in my garden and two other gardens locally where I have planted it, otherwise it is healthy and flowers well.
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Reply #9 of 11 posted 29 JUL by Patricia Routley
There are a couple of "small"s there from warmer countries. I've added the (correct, I hope) countries to my comment.

Yes. Fred found it. See the 2011 reference.

Thanks Virginia. All we can do is keep adding material whenever we find it. One day it might come clear.
Patricia
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Reply #10 of 11 posted 31 JUL by jedmar
No, I do not think that Beauregard is a corruption of Bugeaud. The "Gazette de France" of 1765 lists a series of high-ranking Military men of the Beauregard Family in the 17th/18th centuries, including several Field Marshalls (Maréchal de camp). In Wikipedia there is also one Pierre Raphaël Pauillot de Beauregard, who became Field Marshall in 1791.
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Reply #11 of 11 posted 31 JUL by scvirginia
Yes, then it's a good possibility that there was a 'Géneral Beauregard' Tea- I'll look to see if I can find anything more.

I had just seen a reference to 'Marécal Bugeaud', so he was on my mind. Both Teas, but the difference in color does make it seem likely that there were two roses.

Thanks,
Virginia
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most recent 30 JUL HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 30 JUL by Darrell
Could 'Admirable Bordee de Rouge' be the Damask 'Leda'?
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Reply #1 of 1 posted 30 JUL by Patricia Routley
I suspect not, but the name sounds the same doesn't it.
'Admirable blanc bordé de rouge' apparently had a greenish tinge to the white and this green is never mentioned in the 'Leda' references.
(I will try to remember to check my blooms for greenish tints next spring). Most references carried the two roses:
1848. p20 and p22
1860. p114 and p116
1899. p2 and p96
1936. p3 and p408
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GardenLen
most recent 29 JUL HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 29 JUL by Darrell
An incredible list of wonderful roses. Would love to see your garden. On how many acres. do your roses grow?
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RoseAutumn
most recent 8 JUN SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 17 JUN 08 by Darrell
Available from - Rogue Valley Roses
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Reply #1 of 26 posted 18 JUN 08 by Rupert, Kim L.
WONDERFUL older HT! Very fragrant, blooms like a weed and gets HUGE in my desert climate.
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Reply #2 of 26 posted 20 JUL 15 by Salix
I always wanted to try Herbert Hoover
Seeing it is the same cross ( it shows!), which brother might be the better grower? If Diamond Jubilee was clean, perhaps they might be...
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Reply #3 of 26 posted 21 JUL 15 by Rupert, Kim L.
In my conditions, Autumn had more foliage and larger flowers. Both were beautiful flowers.
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Reply #4 of 26 posted 7 JUN by mamabotanica
What size might I expect in my zone 10b climate? I have a hankering for this beauty but not much space for more roses.
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Reply #5 of 26 posted 7 JUN by StrawChicago Alkaline clay 5a
Own-root roses are much smaller (1/2 size) compared to grafted on Dr.Huey (those cheap body-bags at local stores). Check on the nursery's reputation before ordering, by googling "The scoop of Rogue Valley Roses", or "The Scoop of Roses Unlimited".
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Reply #6 of 26 posted 7 JUN by Margaret Furness
I'm guessing you mean size at time of purchase, rather than eventual mature size, which of course depends on pruning and the class of rose. Old Tea roses on their own roots can be huge, and I have some sizeable early HTs that were cutting-grown.
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Reply #10 of 26 posted 8 JUN by StrawChicago Alkaline clay 5a
Agree with Margaret, I jumped in just to warn about Rouge Valley Roses own-root nursery, after a friend had a bad experience this year. Old Garden roses are vigorous & big as own-root, I gave away own-root Jacques Cartier since it was taller than me in zone 5a .. bought as a tiny band. But modern hybrid teas and Austin roses are much bigger as GRAFTED on Dr. Huey. My Heirloom and Angel Face as own-roots are 1/2 the size, compared to the the same, grafted-on-Dr.Huey. Most of my own-root Austin roses look like mini-roses for the first few years, but the blooms are just as big as grafted. My own-root Pink Peace's blooms had more petals & better scent compared to the grafted-on-Dr.Huey (twice taller).
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Reply #19 of 26 posted 8 JUN by mamabotanica
Nope. I meant mature size so I know if I can squeeze it in or not. I didn't know I had to prine my teas differently than other roses. So much to learn!
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Reply #7 of 26 posted 8 JUN by Nastarana
The one I had in CA, hot and dry, never got over 3' and was a narrow bush. I would think it could be shoehorned into a small yard. No BS, which one rarely sees in CA, and I don't remember it being mildewed either.

I am afraid RVR is the company of last resort for me, on account of having received more than one mislabeled rose over the years.
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Reply #8 of 26 posted 8 JUN by Rupert, Kim L.
For MANY years, there was an own root Autumn in the Huntington Library Rose Garden. It was between five and six feet tall and spread easily four feet. It wasn't dense and full, as most Pernetiana types were not "dense and full" unless budded, grown in ideal conditions and professionally pruned. We used to joke that with Autumn, budding it would act as a "dwarfing method". The Huntington is in Zone 10a. Autumn IS gorgeous and you actually have a shot at seeing the reported colors...IF you provide it protection from the hottest, brightest afternoon sun. Pernetianas generally want warm, dry, brilliant light, but to really obtain "those colors", you need to protect the flowers from the worst sun and heat. Remember that when they were "the thing", Dr. J. H. Nicholas, former breeder for J&P, termed them "thirty minute roses" because that was about how long they lasted in hot sun.

I grew Mark Sullivan for many years. I HAD to have it because of its description and the fact Ralph Moore used it to breed his moss roses and I HAD to study it to see where the traits in his roses came from. In my 9b climate with NO shade, it was "buff". Until one cool, wet, long spring when the "old gold with crimson veining" finally expressed itself. I do love Autumn and wish it was possible to find one not infected with RMV. In over thirty-five years, I've never encountered one.
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Reply #9 of 26 posted 8 JUN by mamabotanica
We are about 2 miles north of the Huntington. I haven't been able to visit their rose garden ( only ever get to the fantastic childrens garden these days) but look forward to visitng whenever I am next able.
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Reply #11 of 26 posted 8 JUN by Rupert, Kim L.
I don't know if Autumn is still there or not. They have replanted many roses and upgraded the gardens tremendously. When I was last there in October, 2016, for the Heritage Rose Conference, Autumn wasn't one of the plants I deliberately looked for.
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Reply #12 of 26 posted 8 JUN by StrawChicago Alkaline clay 5a
A good substitute for Autumn is Halloween. Halloween has 65 petals, compared to Autumn with 25. In hot weather, there's a petal-count reduction, so I prefer more-petals. Many folks rave about the fragrance of Halloween, including a friend in hot Texas. She has hundreds of roses, but misses Halloween the most when she lost it over a harsh winter. Roses Unlimited has Halloween as own-root.
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Reply #13 of 26 posted 8 JUN by Rupert, Kim L.
Halloween is a pretty rose, but suffers from rust where Autumn isn't nearly as susceptible in Southern California. Thanksgiving, another Howard rose (like Halloween) also has tremendous scent with "Pernetiana" coloring, but it, too, is more susceptible to rust here. Both are much more modern appearing with denser foliage and modern architecture, but Autumn won't rust nearly as badly.
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Reply #14 of 26 posted 8 JUN by mamabotanica
Both are lovely but what about rmv you mentioned with autumn? I don't know much about it but would hate to bring in a contagion to my rose garden. Rust doesn't sound good either. Where is my bomb proof heat loving long vase life orange/apricot rose?
Or, if rmv isn't a big concern maybe I'll switch my focus from Halloween (emailed roses unlimited about it latst night) back to Autumn (which seems harder to find).
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Reply #15 of 26 posted 8 JUN by StrawChicago Alkaline clay 5a
Bomb proof heat loving long vase life orange/apricot rose is Tuscan Sun floribunda, a glorious sunset/orange/copper hue, on sale for $12 at Roses Unlimited. Hoovb in hot CA posted a fantastic pc., plus Dave/Deb Boyd grew it in their only 12" of rain Montana climate. I was tempted to order that this week, but its lack of scent held me back. In a vase, if you have a few long-lasting ones for color, plus some intensely fragrant ones (Sutter's Gold), it will balance out.
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Reply #17 of 26 posted 8 JUN by mamabotanica
Thank you for all your advice! So many roses to explore! And soil chemistry too- I got my vegetable beds tested this year and now I suspect I ought to do the same for my rose zone too. It's humbling and exciting to be entering an area I am such a novice at and I'm really delighted I stumbled across this site.
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Reply #18 of 26 posted 8 JUN by StrawChicago Alkaline clay 5a
My B.S. degree is in computer science, minor in chemistry, and knowledge of soil chemistry does help to grow healthy roses. A professional soil test (only $20) can save lots of money in losing roses to diseases. The test for salt-content in soil runs higher. My alkaline clay was tested at pH 7.7, exceedingly high in magnesium, barely adequate in calcium, and less potassium & phosphorus. My alkaline tap water (pH 9) zaps out potassium for blooming, plus zap out phosphorus .. so roses' color become faded. But with acidic rain-water or the right fertilizer, my roses have deeper colors.
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Reply #20 of 26 posted 8 JUN by mamabotanica
My soil test was $50. I researched options and the less expensive (often through co-op extension) wouldn't take our soil because we are in a fruit fly and other pathogen zone :(
If it was $20 I'd get them for several areas. At $50 I need to be choosy. Where did you get your test done?
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Reply #23 of 26 posted 8 JUN by StrawChicago Alkaline clay 5a
From EarthCo. company, recommended by rosarian Karl Bapst, zone 5a. But that company no longer gives out soil-test to homeowners. County Extension also gives test, but more expensive, $40 to $50. I posted in my HMF-profile the link to cheapest pH test using red cabbage juice. For $1 of distilled water and $1 of red cabbage, one can test the pH of 20+ different locations in the garden at the same time. There are charts to determine what's nutrients are missing, given one's pH level. Will post the link in my HMF-profile on that.
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Reply #22 of 26 posted 8 JUN by Rupert, Kim L.
StrawChicago, please remember your version of "heat" and the Southern California (and Montana) versions of "heat" are quite different. There are not only great differences in the humidity levels, but also the intensity of UV and duration of actual light and temperature hours. What is "heat loving" or "heat tolerant/resistant" in Chicago (or Montana) is very likely not going to perform similarly in Southern (or Central, or the hotter inland areas of Northern) California.
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Reply #24 of 26 posted 8 JUN by StrawChicago Alkaline clay 5a
We have intense heat in my Chicagoland from July to Sept, it got over 100 F, and MELTED the wheels off from the barbecue-grill. When I push my patio-screen to open, the metal-handle burnt my finger, so I always use a cloth when I push the door open. I have a board to cover my windshield whenever I park my car outside, otherwise the steering wheel burns my finger. One summer I walked for 5 minutes, and rushed inside since I could not handle the heat. The sun here is very intense to produce really sweet tomatoes. I don't have fog like my sister in Southern California. That's why I give my roses 4 to 5 hours of sun only, lots of shade nearby the house. Growing up in Michigan wasn't that way. My sister from Mission Viejo visited me last summer. She complained how intense our sun here, and refused to go outside to see my roses.
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Reply #16 of 26 posted 8 JUN by StrawChicago Alkaline clay 5a
When you get into roses with more petals, more chance of rust due to the depletion of calcium and potassium after blooming. Lots of calcium and potassium is used up to produce that many petals. With my 100+ varieties of high-petals-count roses, I use sulfate of potash and gypsum to fix my alkaline tap water (pH 9): fill a large bottle with 3/4 vinegar, then keep adding POWDER potassium 1st, then gypsum in a 2 to 1 ratio, until those solids can no longer dissolve. Then use 1 tablespoon of that per 2 gallons of tap-water.

I spent hours researching the cause of rust after Sonia Rykiel (over 100 petals) rust on me in a dinky pot in hot summer. If you check with agricultural abstracts, here are the causes of rust: 1) excessive rain which leaches out calcium and potassium 2) low potassium and high manganese 3) high-salt tap water 4) hot & dry weather which induce potassium deficiency. Potassium deficiency is also linked to mildew.

The logic of using sulfate of potash plus gypsum to fix alkaline tap water is: gypsum (calcium sulfate) is known to de-salt saline soil, so gypsum flushes out the salt. Sulfate of potash is to provide sulfur to lower the high pH of tap-water, plus to provide potassium to prevent mildew and rust. Austin roses with zillion petals have a higher need for calcium and potassium.
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Reply #21 of 26 posted 8 JUN by Rupert, Kim L.
RMV was, at one time, a major issue with American raised roses. It reached its zenith in the late eighties to mid nineties, and it has been theorized that something like 80% of the American crop was infected with one (or more) types of the plant viruses which comprise Rose Mosaic Virus (RMV), including PNRSP (Prunus Necrotic Ring Spot Virus). Some strains are more virulent than others and some roses are much more susceptible than others. As there are different types/strains, as a rose passed through different companies, some were actually infected with multiple strains/types, increasing their viral load. With very popular, long-produced types such as Queen Elizabeth, Double Delight, Iceberg and many others, at one time, it was impossible to find stock of them which was NOT infected. Fortunately, there are and have been programs in various universities across the country which have "indexed", tested and heat treated many varieites to clean them of the RMV group. Because of these programs, it is possible to find plants of them which are not infected. Unfortunately, the last American source which actually identified their cleaned stock was Vintage, which is no longer in active business. Pickering, in Canada, which is also now out of the nursery business, indexed, "cleaned", all of their roses they sold. Heirloom Roses has long had a policy of indexing their roses. Presumably, a variety purchased from Heirloom SHOULD be free from RMV.

For older types which were never passed through any indexing program, it is virtually impossible to find examples not infected. Occasionally, a very old plant is discovered somewhere, propagated and introduced back into circulation. Also, occasionally, it finds its way into a virus testing program and is found to not be infected. Schmidt's Smooth Yellow, a thornless, yellow Polyantha discovered in an old garden in San Rafael, CA and Belmont Yellow, another yellow poly type discovered back east, were both tested and determined to carry the same strain of PNRSV, indicating they had both probably been produced by the same source at one time. George Washington Richardson, a found rose in an old cemetery in California, was tested and found to be free from RMV. It has also been observed to be virtually identical to the rose now determined to be the original Mlle de Sombreuil, not the large flowered climber in commerce as Sombreuil, but the Tea rose. Atmore Lamarque, the plant brought to Ventura County from Placerville, CA by covered wagon by the Atmore brothers in 1869 and planted at the Queen Anne style mansion one of the brothers built, the family still occupies and at which the plant still grows, has been tested and found to be free of RMV.

For anyone living in a warmer climate, where "killing freezes" are not an issue, growing a virused rose is much less of an issue than for someone living where winter weather can more easily take out a plant. Where a variety is able to be found without viral infection, of course it is preferable. But if you want a particular rose and it is only available with RMV infection, and you live where "winter" won't be expected to potentially kill it, it's your choice whether or not to grow it. Yes, I do have a very few roses I know are virused. If and when I am asked for cuttings of them, I do indicate to the person asking for them I know they are infected. That permits them to make the choice whether or not they still desire them. I know my Lilac Charm has RMV. It occasionally expresses the characteristic leaf patterns, but I love the rose and I choose to grow it. The RMV may perhaps inhibit its performance. I don't know for sure as I have never seen a plant of it anywhere which did not express the virus symptoms at some period of the year. For several others, I grew them with infection in the past and determined that if clean stock were to become available, I would grow only the indexed material to grow them again. Sterling Silver is an excellent example of that. I grew it for years and it expressed symptoms. When indexed material presented itself, I obtained it and am now nursing the own root plant along until I can bud it to indexed root stock. The point is, living in Zone 10, most roses with RMV will likely grow acceptably for you, as very many had for many years at The Huntington Library. Would an uninfected plant of the same variety perform better? Possibly, possibly not. Would an uninfected plant be desirable over one known to be infected? Personally? Absolutely! But, what if you can't obtain that specific rose known to be free of RMV? It's your choice whether to deprive yourself of growing a rose you desire because it is only available with RMV, or not. As I have stated, I choose and have chosen for several decades, to grow the roses I wanted, whether infected or not and have replaced those with infection with clean stock, if and when it has become available to me. Had I lived where a weakened plant would more likely to have been killed by severe cold, I may have made a different choice...or not.
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Reply #25 of 26 posted 8 JUN by mamabotanica
Thank you for your thoughtful and incredibly informative reply!
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Reply #26 of 26 posted 8 JUN by Rupert, Kim L.
You're welcome!
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