HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
most recent 8 NOV HIDE POSTS
Initial post 8 NOV by Darrell
Available from - Freedom Gardens & 6193 Vair Rd., Freedom Twp., Ohio 44266
most recent 7 AUG 17 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 6 AUG 17 by Darrell
This photo is not from the 1922 American Rose Annual. I own the book. It is not listed in the contents of plates. Nor could I find it when I went through the book page by page. Nor is it in the 1921 or 1923 annual. Perhaps it's from The Rose Annual of England?
Reply #1 of 3 posted 7 AUG 17 by Margaret Furness
It's not in the list of illustrations in the 1922 Rose Annual.
Reply #2 of 3 posted 7 AUG 17 by Patricia Routley
It might be R. hugonis from the 1916 American Rose Annual p32?

The photo was used in McFarland's 1937 Roses of the World in Colour p176 and labelled there Rosa multibracteata.
Reply #3 of 3 posted 7 AUG 17 by Rupert, Kim L.
Thanks, Darrell, Margaret and Patricia. I scanned the image some time ago and don't have access to my books as they are packed in the garage where I can't get to them. I don't have the 1916 ARS annual but do have the McFarland book. I posted a number of scanned images in an evening and probably mis labeled this one while labeling the bunch.
most recent 31 JUL 17 SHOW ALL
Initial post 26 JUL 09 by Darrell
RogersRoses, which sells 'Le Pactole', states that this rose grows from 2.5 to 5 feet. That coincides with my own plant. I can find no source that claims this rose is a climbing tea. One old 19th century source even calls it a dwarf plant. Perhaps there is a climbing variety of 'Le Pactole', but, again, the few sources that mention this rose do not refer to it as such.
Reply #1 of 11 posted 26 JUL 09 by jedmar
You are certainly right; there is no way for 'Le Pactole' to climb 6 meters. This is an error.
Reply #2 of 11 posted 19 JUL 17 by scvirginia
Neither 6 meters, nor a climbing rose, but 'Le Pactole' does get large in California, and was reported as being kept to 9-10 feet with occasional pruning at the Sacramento Cemetery on the Antique Roses Forum- here is a link to a photo of 2 'LP' planted together in Sacramento (with 'Cécile Brunner' in front):
Reply #3 of 11 posted 20 JUL 17 by jedmar
Reply #4 of 11 posted 22 JUL 17 by scvirginia
Yes, indeed!

I think 'Le Pactole' was dismissed as a contender for being "Yallum Park Cream" because it was thought to be too small.

I do see similarities, though it's hard to say if they might be the same. 'LP' seems to be variable color-wise... not just the flowers being more ivory in some gardens and pale yellow elsewhere, but also the foliage and canes (more purplish in some places, more green in others).

But I don't think it's too small... I'd expect 'LP' would get quite large in Oz with maturity.

Reply #5 of 11 posted 23 JUL 17 by Patricia Routley
Virginia, I will reply further in "Yallum Park Cream".
Reply #6 of 11 posted 29 JUL 17 by Patricia Routley
1893 The Rose (Ellwanger)
p269. No. 539. Le Pactole dwf. or mod. T. 'Madame Pean'. From Lamarque x Yellow Tea. Very pale yellow, beautiful buds.

From the above reference, it would seem that 'Le Pactole' was introduced by Pean-Sylvain. Would anybody have access to a Pean-Sylvain catalogue for any description?

I feel that the original 'Le Pactole' might have been a small bush. See refs
1843 p338 - small bushes. This ref is for 'Madame de Chalonge' (?France)
1844 p97 - dwarf habit (Pennsylvania, U.S.)
1848 p154 - growth moderate (Waltham Cross, U.K.)
1864 p142 - less vigorous habit (London, U.K.)
1871 - [bloom] small (London, U.K.)
1880 p76 - medium-size [bloom]. This ref is for 'Madame de Chalonge' (Germany)
1898 p19 - low growing. (Cannes, France)

Does anybody know the provenance of the 'Le Pactole's in America? Do they descend from the Sierra Nevada foundling?

There have been so many 'Narcisse' and similar roses that I am quite confused. In trying to make sense of them, I list a few roses in chronological order:
<1826 Narcisse Laffay, China Bengale, or Tea.
<1831 Narcisse Unknown. Tea. Milk-white with flesh. [Refer Old Roses: The Master List 2007, p473]
<1836 Narcisse Unknown. Noisette. Yellowish white [Refer Old Roses: The Master List 2007, p473]
<1837 Le Pactole Miellez. Noisette or Tea.
1845 Narcisse Genest. Noisette.
1845 Narcisse Mansais. Noisette or Tea [listed with Enfant de Lyon and apparently similar to Le Pactole]
<1853 Narcisse Avoux & Crozy. Tea. [or Noisette?]
1854 Louise de Savoie Damaizin. Tea.
1858 Enfant de Lyon Avoux & Crozy. Tea [or Noisette?]
<1885 Marechal Beauregard. [not on HelpMeFind. refer Le Pactole 1893 ref]
Reply #7 of 11 posted 29 JUL 17 by scvirginia
Not to be difficult, but I think it's quite possible for a Tea-Noisette to be dwarf in England, but grow to a substantial size in sunnier locales. This seems especially likely with 'Le Pactole' which- I've been told- is a slower grower than most Teas.

I seem to recall that 'Le Pactole' in the U.S. hails from a rose found by Fred Boutin in California, but I hope someone else can chime in to verify or correct my recollection.

It seems to me that if there were really that many different pale yellow Teas, Noisettes, and/or Tea-Noisettes called 'Narcisse', that catalogues would specify which is which. Since I have not seen that, my guess is that there really weren't seven different 'Narcisse' roses, just more confusion than usual about who bred/ introduced the one or two that did exist. Not much help there- sorry.


PS Do you think 'Marechal Beauregard' might be a corruption of 'Maréchal Bugeaud', even though that wasn't a light yellow Tea?
Reply #8 of 11 posted 29 JUL 17 by Andrew from Dolton
'Blush Noisette' grows less than 1 metre tall in my garden and two other gardens locally where I have planted it, otherwise it is healthy and flowers well.
Reply #9 of 11 posted 29 JUL 17 by Patricia Routley
There are a couple of "small"s there from warmer countries. I've added the (correct, I hope) countries to my comment.

Yes. Fred found it. See the 2011 reference.

Thanks Virginia. All we can do is keep adding material whenever we find it. One day it might come clear.
Reply #10 of 11 posted 31 JUL 17 by jedmar
No, I do not think that Beauregard is a corruption of Bugeaud. The "Gazette de France" of 1765 lists a series of high-ranking Military men of the Beauregard Family in the 17th/18th centuries, including several Field Marshalls (Maréchal de camp). In Wikipedia there is also one Pierre Raphaël Pauillot de Beauregard, who became Field Marshall in 1791.
Reply #11 of 11 posted 31 JUL 17 by scvirginia
Yes, then it's a good possibility that there was a 'Géneral Beauregard' Tea- I'll look to see if I can find anything more.

I had just seen a reference to 'Maréchal Bugeaud', so he was on my mind. Both Teas, but the difference in color does make it seem likely that there were two roses.

most recent 30 JUL 17 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 30 JUL 17 by Darrell
Could 'Admirable Bordee de Rouge' be the Damask 'Leda'?
Reply #1 of 1 posted 30 JUL 17 by Patricia Routley
I suspect not, but the name sounds the same doesn't it.
'Admirable blanc bordé de rouge' apparently had a greenish tinge to the white and this green is never mentioned in the 'Leda' references.
(I will try to remember to check my blooms for greenish tints next spring). Most references carried the two roses:
1848. p20 and p22
1860. p114 and p116
1899. p2 and p96
1936. p3 and p408
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