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most recent 5 MAY 12 SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 19 MAR 06 by Cass
'Mlle de Sombreuil,' a tea, and the large flowered climber in commerce as 'Sombreuil' are not the same rose and should not be grouped together or shown as synonyms. They are very different from one another, have entirely different growth habits and very different hardiness ratings.

The large flowered climber is probably a descendant of 'New Dawn', while the tea 'Mlle de Sombreuil' has typical tea growth with lovely dark green foliage.
REPLY
Reply #1 of 29 posted 26 APR 06 by Jeri Jennings
There is no known answer to questions regarding the parentage of this rose.  We know only that the climbing rose we call "Sombreuil" is NOT the historic 'Mlle. de Sombreuil,' and was NOT created from 'Gigantesque.' 

It is a rose of unknown origin, and unknown parentage.  The physical characteristics of the rose lead some to believe it is a Hybrid of R. wichuriana -- but the Who, What, and Where of its creation are unknown.  No one can know what the unknown creator was aiming for.

Jeri Jennings
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Reply #20 of 29 posted 26 MAR 07 by HMF Admin
Jeri,

You seem to be very familiar with this issue. Would you consider enlightening us further with a brief Ezine article ? I'm sure the HMF users not aware of your findings would be very interested.
Meanwhile, thanks much for your input here.
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Reply #22 of 29 posted 26 MAR 07 by Unregistered Guest
No Problema.
You'll have it later today. :-)
Jeri
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Reply #23 of 29 posted 26 MAR 07 by HMF Admin
Wow, that was easy ! Thanks Jeri !! Your participation with HMF is much appreciated.
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Reply #2 of 29 posted 28 APR 06 by William

This is directly from the Jackson & Perkins database:


Sombreuil Antique Climber-



  • Pronunciation: Sombreuil=som-broo-ee

  • Parentage: Gigantesque

  • Height: 8-12'

  • Bloom color: White to cream

  • Bloom size: 3-4"

  • Petal count: 100+

  • Foliage: Semi-glossy, dark green

  • Fragrance: Strong, tea-rose

  • Vigorous repeat bloomer

  • Shade tolerant

  • Named in memory of Mlle de Sombreuil, a heroine of the French Revolution

    William


    Jackson & Perkins Customer Service


  • REPLY
    Reply #3 of 29 posted 28 APR 06 by Jeri Jennings
    William -- Sorry to disillusion you.   J&P is NOT the Fount of All Wisdom. 

    This material is correct in its description of the plant.
     The information about parentage, and naming, and classification relates to a different rose.  Don't shoot the messenger.  The error is of long-standing. 

    I recommend that you reference the information regarding 'Mlle. de Sombreuil' on the Vintage Gardens Website.
    REPLY
    Reply #4 of 29 posted 28 APR 06 by William

    Jeri,


    If that is the case then we need to reevaluate our information.  Our catalog states that it was produced around the 1850's and as you see our master list says Parentage: Gigantesque.  Thank you for your candor.  I still have yet to hear from Mike Cady. Thanks again!


    REPLY
    Reply #5 of 29 posted 28 APR 06 by Jeri Jennings
    William -- ' 'Mlle. de Sombreuil' WAS produced in the 1850;s.

    The problem is that the rose being sold by J&P (among others) as "Sombreuil" is NOT the historic Tea Rose, 'Mlle. de Sombreuil.'  The confusion lies in the fact that two roses are "using" the same name. 

    Jeri
    REPLY
    Reply #6 of 29 posted 28 APR 06 by William

    Jeri,


    Also as you see the one we sell is "Named in memory of Mile de Sombreuil, a heroine of the French Revolution".  Like I said until I here what Mr. Cady has to say, I will be totally confused.


    William

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    Reply #7 of 29 posted 29 APR 06 by Kim Rupert

    William, if you study other roses of the Climbing Tea classification, then study the rose in commerce, including by J&P, as Sombreuil, you will see for yourself this is NOT a "Tea" rose. Once you have accomplished this comparison, then study roses bred from the species, R. wichuraiana, most notably, New Dawn, you will see the great resemblance, yourself. These two roses were confused in the trade many decades ago, and the confusion has been perpetuated by all who have sold "Sombreuil" ever since. When you receive material from someone who knows more than you do, seldom is the identification questioned. The "expert" IS supposed to know what he/she is talking about. Usually, the "expert" is relying upon information which has been given him by other "experts". Not to cast aspersions on "experts" in any way, as identifying anything which can vary so greatly due to many factors is never easy.


    There have been several notable cases of this type of confusion occurring with older roses. Jacques Cartier and Marchessa Boccella is one well known example as is the confusion between the two old Irish Hybrid Teas, Irish Fireflame and Irish Elegance, which I was able to unravel a few years ago. More recently, the confusion between the China, Irene Watts and the floribunda, Pink Gruss an Aachen was straightened out. Another was the discovery that the old Tea rose, Francis Dubreuil and the older Hybrid Tea, Barcelona, are the same rose. Not that originally there weren't two different roses in commerce, but currently, there is only one rose in each case, being mistakenly sold under the two different names. I seriously doubt anyone did anything dishonest, resulting in one rose being sold as the other name. No one is suggesting anything dishonest has been involved. When you read the older descriptions of these early roses, you'll find they were often sufficiently vague about botanical details, or there was so little defining information included, or even enough "poetic license" taken (VERY much like the case with modern rose catalogs!), that definitive identification is virtually impossible. To read my own research concerning the Irish Fireflame/Irish Elegance correction, please see the article at this link, here on Help Me Find.


    http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?i=A3407&tab=12


    It's very easy for roses to be mistaken for one another. That's how the root stock most commonly used in the United States by virtually all the major rose producers, including Jackson & Perkins, Dr. Huey, became the industry standard in this country. The information uncovered suggests that cuttings of the originally used stock, Gloire des Rosomanes, or Ragged Robin, were confused with those of Dr. Huey. Both were struck and budded in the fields there in Wasco, California. It was noticed that roses budded on some of the root stock developed faster and into better plants than others. They discovered the better plants hadn't been budded on Ragged Robin, but accidentally budded on Dr. Huey. Now, just about any budded rose generated in California is on Dr. Huey's roots, and have been for over half a century. 


    Accidents in identification occur all the time. The wrong rose gets shipped from nurseries; tags in receiving nurseries are mistakenly placed upon the incorrect plants; one small discrepancy in identifying a row in a mother block can lead to the incorrect budwood being collected. Often, roses are so generally similar that anyone either not familiar enough with the varieties, or careless in their collection of the requested material due to lack of interest or being rushed, can very easily pick up the wrong rose. Unidentified roses are frequently supplied to "experts" for identification. You'll see that nearly daily here and on other rose sites. When all you have is the scant information available about some of the older roses upon which to make an identification, it's easy to slip up. That's very likely what occurred regarding the Irene Watts/Pink Gruss an Aachen and Francis Dubreuil/Barcelona situations. The corrections occur through people looking at a rose and thinking, "something just isn't quite right here", as is the case with Sombreuil. I hope you have the opportunity to do some of this observation I suggested earlier of the Climbing Teas and Sombreuil. I guarantee it will cause you to question this identity.


     

    REPLY
    Reply #8 of 29 posted 29 APR 06 by William

    Kim,


    I do understand that this is not a "Tea" rose. My main concern in with Jackson & Perkins (for I work for them).  When they state in a catalog that this rose was introduced in the 1850's and its parentage is Gigantesque; where did they get their information and why did they publish it to pass along to our customer if they were not certain.  My main issue is internal and hope to have some answers before the end of next week.  On the other hand I appreciate your tour concerning roses that have been misclassified due to human err.


    On a lighter note; it is really funny you just answered me this way. I was just looking to see if anyone from J & P did any correspondence on this site and I found you and was getting ready talk with you about this very subject.


    Thanks again,


    William

    REPLY
    Reply #9 of 29 posted 29 APR 06 by Jeri Jennings
    William -- J&P used -- in good faith -- the information we ALL have, regarding 'Mlle. de Sombreuil.'  (See "THE OLD ROSE ADVISOR," Dickerson, Pg. 218).

    The information is correct.  It's just that the rose being sold under that description is not the rose it was describing.

    It's not J&P's fault (or than of other vendors) that an error was made a half-century ago. 

    Now that the error has been exposed, some vendors have begun to correct their information.

    Vintage offers the correct 'Mlle. de Sombreuil,' and notes the error. 
    Ashdown also notes that this rose is not the true Sombreuil, 
    I'm sure J&P doesn't want to be the LAST vendor to correct this old error.

    Jeri
    REPLY
    Reply #10 of 29 posted 29 APR 06 by William

    Jeri,


    I am positive you are right.  And to think this particular discussion on this site only started Jan 2005, right as J & P introduced it into their catalog.  Now I want to know where the "Antique" climber came from; I truely love this rose.


    William

    REPLY
    Reply #11 of 29 posted 29 APR 06 by Jeri Jennings
    AH, William! 

    We'd ALL like to know where the thing came from.   It's a GLORIOUS rose, and it's a shame to see it "hidden" by an incorrect identification.  (I have three of it!)

    It (or its identical twin) was released in 1959 by M. Wyant of Mentor, OH, as 'Colonial White.'  The recorded parentage for 'Colonial White' was 'New Dawn' x 'Mme. Hardy.'

    The problem with that is twofold:
    1.  'Mme. Hardy' is, as far as anyone has seen, sterile.
    2.  Wyant registered at least one other rose with records that may be incorrect.

    However, the 'New Dawn' part seems feasible, since it appears to have a Wichuriana background.  It's a mystery -- that is certain.

    Jeri
    REPLY
    Reply #12 of 29 posted 4 MAY 06 by William

    Jeri,


    Finally got word from our distributors.  Our Sombreuil Antique Climber "appears to be identical to Colonial White"  So, yes there is great controversy about THIS roses heritage.  Sorry I don't have more information.


    William


    J & P Customer Service

    REPLY
    Reply #13 of 29 posted 4 MAY 06 by Jeri Jennings
    I do not know what J&P's capabilities are -- HOWEVER -- one easy way to unscramble the central puzzle of this rose would be to compare its dna against that of R. wichuriana.

    IF R. wichuriana is a forebear of the rose in question, it cannot have been introduced in 1851.  Therefore, it cannot be 'Mlle. de Sombreuil.'  (And parenthetically, cannot be a Tea of any sort.)

    More interesting still would be to test it against New Dawn, and perhaps Mme. Hardy.

    Jeri
    REPLY
    Reply #21 of 29 posted 26 MAR 07 by HMF Admin
    Thank you for your participation Kim - your insight is always a valuable and revered contribution to HMF. Thanks again.
    REPLY
    Reply #25 of 29 posted 27 MAR 07 by Anonymous-97434
    You're welcome! Thank YOU! This is what makes Help Me Find so valuable...the free International exchange of information between people of varying experience levels, raising the experience level of all involved. It couldn't happen without you and Help Me Find! Kim
    REPLY
    Reply #14 of 29 posted 9 MAY 06 by William

    Got word from Keith Zary and here is what he said, just thought you'd like to know:



    I am not an expert on antique roses. All my information on Climbing Sombreuil is from the literature that you probably are already aware. To the best of my knowledge, Robert of France bred the rose in 1850. It is stated to be a seedling of 'Gigantesque'. Austin states that the other parent is probably a Noisette or Tea rose. He could well be correct because the flowers are as Austin says "refined". I can find reference to a hybrid tea as a parent but this seems very unlikely(technically HT's did not come about until la France in 1867). As for the romantic story of the heroine of the Revolution, it makes for great catalog copy but I cannot prove the story. I also know that some experts like David Ruston report that the current edition of Sombreuil may not be the original. Again, I cannot prove this story.


    So, all I have done is further cloud the issue. Good luck in trying to find the correct answer.


    Best Regards,


    Keith


     


    REPLY
    Reply #15 of 29 posted 9 MAY 06 by Jeri Jennings
    All of the information Keith quoted is correct -- for the true 'Mlle. de Sombreuil.' 
    None of it is true of the rose in commerce as Sombreuil, which is not a Tea Rose, or a Climbing Tea Rose, and which is probably a creation of the 20th Century.

    OTOH, it is a really grand rose.  How much do I like it?  Enough to grow four of it!  Even tho in my foggy coastal climate it can mildew a little, I would not be without this beautiful mystery rose.

    Jeri
    REPLY
    Reply #16 of 29 posted 12 MAY 06 by Nicole Piehl

    Thank you guys so much for this whole discussion!  I am pleased that you have taken the time to not only do the research and ask the questions, but also to share with the rest of us.


    Nicole

    REPLY
    Reply #17 of 29 posted 12 MAY 06 by William

    Nicole,


    It has been my pleasure.  I for one wanted to know the truth about this rose; I spend so much time talking to customers who order from us (Jackson & Perkins) and facts really do matter to me.  Besides that I love this rose.


    William

    REPLY
    Reply #24 of 29 posted 26 MAR 07 by HMF Admin
    William,

    We too thank you for your participation in this discussion and for bringing to bear the resources of J&P to help.
    REPLY
    Reply #26 of 29 posted 29 MAR 07 by William
    I have learned alot and have shared with my peers hoping to soon correct our error in the J & P catalog.
    REPLY
    Reply #18 of 29 posted 26 MAR 07 by marcir
    I have posted a number of pictures of Sombreuil, Climbing, at various stages of bloom, as well as pictures of leaf, thorns and stipules. I will do the same for Mlle de Sombreuil when my plant is large enough in summer.
    REPLY
    Reply #19 of 29 posted 26 MAR 07 by HMF Admin
    To all,

    The discussion about this rose is what HMF is all about - a globally accessable resource to collect and share the knowledge and opinions of people from around the world. Only through this open exchange of knowledge can we hope to document and resolve decade-old misconceptions as well as provide the most timely information available. Please note the support of several volunteers from different parts of the world have allowed us to greatly expand our rose, nursery, garden, breeder, society, (etc.) listings.
    REPLY
    Reply #27 of 29 posted 26 MAY 08 by solicitr
    While the climbing Sombreuil is pretty plainly of Wichurana stock, I'm really unconvinced that it comes from New Dawn or any other Van Fleet rambler. Dr Walter v F used Hybrid Teas in his crosses, and his wichurana ramblers all (AFAIK) have very modern-form blooms: most unlike 'Sombreuil.'

    Possiby it's a Barbier- but then again a LOT of breeders started playing with R. Wich as soon as it was introduced.


    Incidentally, Mademoiselle de Sombreuil (the human one) was a 'heroine' of the Revolution because she demonstrated the ardour of her commitment by drinking a glass of aristocrats' blood, fresh from the guillotine. Some heroine.
    REPLY
    Reply #28 of 29 posted 21 APR 09 by Jeff Britt
    I really think we are never going to know where the rose sold as Sombreuil originated. It is, in many ways, quite unique. There doesn't seem to be much doubt (though no proof) that it is a wichuriana climber, but what kind is far from obvious. There aren't any Barbier ramblers quite like it. "Sombreuil" has larger flowers than just about any Barbier rambler, and reblooms freely, which the Barbiers do not. The new growth is tinged with red and the prickles remain red, again unusual for the Barbier ramblers. I would have to agree with Jeri Jennings - this is probably a 20th century creation. I don't think New Dawn is its parent since it doesn't really resemble any its progeny. Hence, my belief we are never going to know its parentage or origins. That said, it's fun to speculate! Maybe DNA analysis will point the way to more focused speculation.
    REPLY
    Reply #29 of 29 posted 5 MAY 12 by Courtaud
    Mlle de Sombreuil drank a glass of what she believed was blood in order to saver her father (a marquis) from the guillotine, poor girl.
    REPLY
    most recent 3 MAY 12 HIDE POSTS
     
    Initial post 3 MAY 12 by Courtaud
    According to the Allegra Catalogue (Catania, 1933) the Italian name for Frau Karl Druschki is "Regina della neve" for both the bush and climbing form.
    REPLY
    most recent 3 MAY 12 HIDE POSTS
     
    Initial post 3 MAY 12 by Courtaud
    The description "Medium pink Miniature." is incorrect.
    Also incorrect that Bella di Monza is an once bloomer; at least mine, from Barni, blooms all the season long, sparsely but continuously, not in flushes. Looks very much like a China to me.

    The breeder name is Villoresi, not Villaresi.
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    most recent 1 FEB 10 HIDE POSTS
     
    Initial post 31 JAN 10 by Courtaud
    The new web adress is: www.petrovicroses.rs/english/index.htm
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    Reply #1 of 1 posted 1 FEB 10 by HMF Admin
    We have corrected your web address. Please consider becoming a HelpMeFind sponsor.
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