HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
Lyn G
most recent 8 days ago SHOW ALL
Initial post 28 MAY 10 by Irish22
Beautiful deep red, large blooms all summer long in my graden (zone 5 Canada). Not that prolific in terms of number of blooms..usually 4 or 5 at a time. Cut back hard every fall and grows to about 3 feet. Deep raspberry scent. Long stems ..great cut flower.
Reply #1 of 7 posted 28 MAY 10 by Lyn G

You will probably have much better performance for this rose if you did not do any fall pruning except for snow protection. Modern roses store their nutrients in their canes and when you prune them off in the fall, the plant doesn't have anything available for the spring push and has to start all over. All of the plant energy is put into putting on new growth and the plant sacrifices the blooms in order to grow again.

Reply #2 of 7 posted 28 MAY 10 by Irish22
Thanks Lyn..The first few winters I left the canes much longer but I found in our harsh winters they died back almost right to the ground anyway, even with winter protection. We regularly get temperatures lower than -20C (-5F) so only the very hardiest will tolerate our winters with long canes exposed .
Reply #3 of 7 posted 29 MAY 10 by Lyn G
Each of us learns what works in our own gardens. When I moved away from rose heaven in southern California to the mountains of northern California, I felt like I had to learn how to grow roses all over again.

I still haven't gotten this climate completely figured out ! It is a climate of extremes, triple digit temps for weeks at a time in the summer and cold in the winter, but NOT as cold as your garden.

My comment was based upon the linage of the rose.

With Regards,
Reply #4 of 7 posted 10 DEC 13 by Dianne's Southwest Idaho Rose Garden
Cutting back in the fall, even when the canes are bound to die, is not a good idea in cold climates, as you want the roses to go dormant to protect them when cold weather hits, and cutting back delays this. If you must cut them back, do so when they've already frozen, and only cut enough to keep them from being felled by a heavy wind. Then in the spring you can prune based on what canes are still healthy, keeping in mind that if you prune too soon and they begin growing, they will be more vulnerable to a late freeze.
Reply #5 of 7 posted 10 DEC 13 by Lyn G

I agree with you 100%. However, in my climate, at my elevation, we get heavy, wet, gloppy snow that causes cane breakage ... not die back.

I only "snow-tip" those roses that may have a breakage problem to open up the canopy so that the snow falls through the plant and does not cause any breakage. It's a preventative prune. The cane is going to break anyway, so I might as well decide where it will break.

My snow-tip prune takes place the day before snow is predicted on only a few of the hundred roses I grow. I have never had additional die back or any further problems with the roses treated this way. I did have lots of problems helping roses look good after cane breakage.

I think I am gardening in a warmer climate than you are and really don't have to worry about die back. I may have to eat those words this winter. This week our night temps have been down to 5F with day temps just above freezing ... lol.

Reply #6 of 7 posted 8 days ago by Dianne's Southwest Idaho Rose Garden
Lyn, that makes perfect sense. Have you tried staking? Either way, roses are really tough. Mine have died almost to the ground and they come back as strong as ever (even the budded ones). One year we had a 70 degree day in late November and the next day it snowed and the day after that was below zero. Only the snow insulated the roses. They died within a few inches of the ground that year, for certain. Surprisingly, I lost only about two of my 1400 roses.
Reply #7 of 7 posted 8 days ago by Lyn G
Dianne ...

No, I have never bothered to stake the roses. Since I heat with wood, my primary fall chore is getting wood tossed up from the street level to the house pad level where the woodshed is located. Then stacked. It's both time consuming and hard labor ... o;

Snow-tipping is quick and easy, so that's the method I've continued to use over the years.

You are right. Roses are tough. They constantly surprise me.

most recent 27 OCT SHOW ALL
Initial post 15 MAY 13 by goncmg
Just got this one as a sub from Heirloom...............actually hate striped roses and put it on my alt list as a dare and wow, joke on, what am I to expect? How sickly is this one in humid 6a Columbus? Is it really striped?Does it set hips? Is there any reason I should keep it and not "gift" it away?
Reply #1 of 15 posted 16 MAY 13 by Patricia Routley
I don't have this rose, but it seems, that yes it is striped. It did not have consistently good reports in New Zealand and I suspect that it may not be healthy in your humid climate. According to the Australian patent, the hips are medium to large and pitcher shaped. There are a few more references to be read now.
Reply #2 of 15 posted 16 MAY 13 by Nastarana
I consider O & L to be a gimick. I have never seen one that was not a puny, unattractive specimen. You might want to try a rigorous fertilizer regimen, to bring out its' best growth and color.
Reply #3 of 15 posted 16 MAY 13 by goncmg
Thanks Nastarana and Patricia! Yeah, I figured this one would be a "dud" and I'll see what I can do with it.....why I listed it as a sub when I don't even LIKE striped roses is beyond me, guess I wanted to tempt the fates. Maybe it will surprise me, I will put it on the same "medicine" schedule that Soleil d'Or and Golden Showers get: a little spritz of Rose Pride each and everyday.....
Reply #4 of 15 posted 4 DEC 13 by Simon Voorwinde
I grow it in Tasmania, Australia, with no care at all... it's a tall strong plant.
Reply #5 of 15 posted 5 DEC 13 by Margaret Furness
It was very good in my sister's garden in the Adelaide Hills - zone 9b, Mediterranean climate with dry summers. Nice effect with the burgundy leaves.
Reply #6 of 15 posted 5 DEC 13 by Lyn G
It was a dawg in my San Diego garden. It was the first rose I ever shovel pruned ... and I still have no regret. I do like and still grow other McGredy roses, but this one .... not for me.

Reply #7 of 15 posted 1 MAY 16 by LaurelZ
Can you be more specific about why you did not like it? I saw it in a nursery, and I am posting. It looks ok, its not flopping. The foliage, although I did not get a shot looked very attractive and shiny. It appears that Weeks has reclassified Oranges and Lemons as a shurb rose.
Reply #9 of 15 posted 4 JUL 16 by Lyn G
Sorry to be so late responding ...

In my experience, roses are regional. 'Oranges and Lemons' just did not like my San Diego climate. That does not necessarily mean that it will not do well for you.

When I moved to the mountains of northern California, roses that did exceptionally well for me in San Diego did not like the climate up here. Often the success of a rose depends upon where you are gardening.
Reply #10 of 15 posted 4 JUL 16 by LaurelZ
thank you, but it was sold out. It has nice looking leaves.
Reply #15 of 15 posted 27 OCT by peterdewolf
'shovel pruned' ?
Reply #8 of 15 posted 27 JUN 16 by Michael Garhart
It's not a bad rose. Blooms well. Color is nice. Survives decently. Average health.

The bad part is the plant architecture, which does not fit into any practical idea. It is not quite a pillar. It is not a shrub or floribunda. It's very floppy. It can be grown decently inside a pillar structure, where it can sort of flop over the top.
Reply #11 of 15 posted 8 APR 18 by drossb1986
I'll add to this...I grew this one when it first came out. In my experience it was a very disease resistant stripe, very bright. However, the blooms were small, you couldn't really cut them as they aren't really on long enough stems, and it throws these giant arching canes. I don't know if it would grow better as a sorta-climber or what. It was just odd and awkward, not necessarily bad.
Reply #12 of 15 posted 8 APR 18 by Andrew from Dolton
The first time I saw a picture of this rose I fell in love and had to have it. I adore striped roses. Floribundas don't grow so well in my garden so I expected to have to put up with extreme blackspot for a couple of years then remove a half dead plant. But not so. It is tolerably healthy with me and flowers on and off all season, never putting on a big display but a continual one. The dark coloured foliage against the flowers adds another dimension to its appeal. However my only criticism is that when out of flower it is a rather unattractive leggy shrub, so I grow plenty of other plants around it and ignore it to the best of my ability when not in bloom. Never growing very high, by the end of the season it just about manages to get 1 metre tall.
Reply #13 of 15 posted 8 APR 18 by LaurelZ
I was able to buy one and I find it to rapid growing, but not leggy. The flowers are small, but don't sag. I suggest maybe its not getting enough sun light or the soil is poor. I also suggest pruning overly long canes to encourage more wide growth.
Reply #14 of 15 posted 8 APR 18 by Andrew from Dolton
It hates the cool wet summers here, if the flowers weren't so striking I wouldn't grow it.
most recent 21 FEB SHOW ALL
Initial post 11 OCT 10 by Robert Neil Rippetoe
Looks like a typo for 'Carmosine'.
Reply #1 of 8 posted 11 OCT 10 by Lyn G
Thanks, Robert.
Reply #2 of 8 posted 11 OCT 10 by Cass
Modern Roses lists the name as Carmosine by L. Laperrière, but there is confusion.

Roseto Botanico Carla Fineschi lists a 1982 HT named Carmoisine by L. Laperrière. There may be two roses: Carmoisine by L. Laperrière (1982) and Carmosine by R. Laperrière (1995). We have very little information.
Reply #3 of 8 posted 11 OCT 10 by Robert Neil Rippetoe
Hopefully the Viraraghavans can enlighten us. I'll post this thread to their attention.
Reply #4 of 8 posted 12 OCT 10 by Robert Neil Rippetoe
Here is Girija's response.

"Its the Laperierre rose bred in 1982, a Hybrid Tea, codename Lepmiravi. It has been spelt differently in different catalogs etc."
Reply #5 of 8 posted 12 OCT 10 by Cass
I don't know exactly what this means or if anything needs to be done in response.
Reply #6 of 8 posted 12 OCT 10 by Robert Neil Rippetoe
It is confusing.

I interpret it to mean that LAPmiravi, aka 'Carmoisine', bred by Louis Laperrière (France, 1982) is the correct cultivar to use in Viraraghavan lineages, synonymous with 'Carmousine'.

'Carmosine' aka LAPnev by Robert Laperrière 1995 is apparently different rose.
Reply #7 of 8 posted 12 OCT 10 by Lyn G

I merged the "mispelled" rose that I had added to the HMF database to complete the parentage of 'Remembering Cochet' with the 1982 Laperierre rose so that rose page will come up when the parentage is checked on RC. The 1982 rose has the correct breeder code of the rose identified by Girija and now, the parentage on the rose page matches the parentage published in the registration by the ARS. 'Carmousine' is now listed as a synonym of the rose by Laperierre.

Reply #8 of 8 posted 21 FEB by flodur
The correct name of the rose bred 1982 is Carmosine (Lapmiravi) - see the catalogues of Laperrière from 1982 to 1989 (No longer listed in the catalogues from 1990 until today)
most recent 27 NOV 20 SHOW ALL
Initial post 25 FEB 04 by Jean H
I have a 1 year old iceberg rose and it is producing canes from the bottom that have beautifull red blooms. I've learned that I should remove these canes from the main root to keep the plant healthy. Is this correct, and is there a way to root these canes to produce a new plant? Thanks in advance- Jean H.
Reply #1 of 10 posted 2 JUN 03 by Unregistered Guest
The red flowers are the understock that the rose is budded onto. Dig down and grasp the canes and yank down on them. This causes a wound which the rose will form a callous over then no new canes will grow . Cutting them off is like pruning and this will activate them into growing more.
Reply #2 of 10 posted 25 FEB 04 by Unregistered Guest
As I understand it, as Iceberg is white, these canes do need to be removed as they are from the understock. I would remove them and then trt and treat the stems as you would the cutting propagation method, ie, put the end in cutting powder and then in the special cutting mix of soil you can get.
Reply #3 of 10 posted 25 FEB 04 by Unregistered Guest
I do my best to avoid grafted roses, and your Iceberg sounds like a rose bud-grafted onto Dr. Huey understock. When the top dies, the understock often remains alive, producing an entirely new plant. To prevent this from happening again, try to purchase own-root roses. These are grown from cuttings and have no rootstock graft. The plants are also hardier. There is also a Pink Iceberg that is a "sport", or mutation, of the original plant. If your plant is truly red, you are probably seeing the understock plant. Go for the own-root roses in the future.
Reply #4 of 10 posted 14 JUL 06 by Kevin

It appears to me that you don't know very much about roses.

As everyone knows "own root roses" do not have a very strong root system, they will not grow very well and are not as hardy.

The main reason for the existence of own root roses is the fact that they are much cheaper to produce.

I worked on a rose farm for several years and know how much work is involved in growing and grafting Quality roses.

Reply #5 of 10 posted 14 JUL 06 by Lyn G


"As everyone knows "own root roses" do not have a very strong root system, they will not grow very well and are not as hardy."

Unfortunately, this is not a true statement.  When it comes to roses, no one knows it all, even after years and years of experience.  As Mr. Ralph Moore has said, "As soon as you think you know everything about roses, roses change the rules." 

Roses were initially budded to rootstocks in order to bring them to market faster.  If a plant is budded to an established rootstock, then it is generally larger and more appealing to the eventual customer.  Many roses thrive on their own roots and never did need to be budded, but would have required more time to mature to the level of customer expectations.  Some roses cannot grow well on their own roots.  They were weak plants to begin with. 

At one time, budding was the most cost effective way to bring roses to market, but times have changed.  Finding experienced budders is becoming harder and harder and therefore rose producers are now concentrating more of their efforts on breeding plants that will do well on their own roots.

There will always be some roses that do better budded, but the whole industry is forever changing.  With over 30,000 roses on the world-wide market at any given time, almost every generalization about roses or how to grow roses has a bunch of roses available to prove it wrong.





Reply #6 of 10 posted 15 JUL 06 by Rupert, Kim L.

Hi, Berrie. My name is Kim Rupert. I've been exploring my rose obsession for nearly three decades, which doesn't make me an "expert", but I have observed and learned a few things. Lyn quoted Ralph Moore, whom I've been honored to have as a dear friend for over twenty years. He named a rose for me a year ago, which you may view here on Help Me Find. You can also view some of my rose creations here if you look me up in "Rose Breeders". Ashdown, Uncommon Rose, Sequoia, Amity Heritage and others have and do offer my roses commercially. A number of my rose articles have appeared in newsletters and the ARS magazine here in this country, and in Europe. You can read quite a few of them here on Help Me Find. For nearly sixteen years, I developed and maintained a large collection of roses (roughly 1,200 plants, MANY of which I rooted) on a desert hill side here in the mid Southern California desert, until I downsized it several years ago due to construction. I have given slide presentations to roses societies and at a Huntington Old Rose Symposium, and I consult with people about their rose gardens here in northern Los Angeles County as part of my job. I've grown roses here in the desert and I grow them within walking distance of the Pacific Ocean at the beach.

I began volunteering 23 years ago at The Huntington Library in San Marino, California, propagating roses. For several years, a friend and I generated several thousand own root roses of ALL classes for their sales. Between propagating there; growing hundreds of own root varieties; observing them all over California; and spending many, many hours with Mr. Moore and haunting Sequoia Nursery, I have observed you can't make accurate blanket statements about roses, or much of anything else. Once you've studied as many plants in as many places as possible over many years, you'll notice some things which do seem fairly consistent. First, not all roses will root. Some root like weeds and grow beautifully own root, while others don't seem to have sufficiently developed cambium layers to callous and generate roots well. Even those which do root well and grow well own root, can have more limited ranges of soil, temperatures, water type and frequency, etc., than the established root stocks may. I can say, with some certainty, in areas which aren't extremely cold and where minimum cultural requirements are met, many modern and nearly all Old Garden Roses perform as well, and sometimes even better own root than they do budded. Remember, budding and grafting were not common methods of propagation until the Twentieth Century. Well into the last Century, the established method of rose production was own root cuttings. Modern Roses introduced prior to the 1920s were mostly offered own root, (as were all Old Garden Roses for a few centuries) so they had to root and grow well own root or they didn't get introduced. (Much like miniature roses today) It wasn't until J&P and a few others chose to bud to produce larger, stronger plants in less time than rooting could, that budding began to become the standard. The vast majority of miniature roses have always been propagated own root. Many budded roses planted with the bud union below the soil surface will frequently root and continue as own root plants. Many roses will layer and root in place when canes are in constant contact with a suitably damp soil surface. In the 1980s, I imported quite a few roses from growers in England. Harkness' "International Herald Tribune" came budded. As I'd planted it on a rather steep slope, soil washed down with each rain and watering, until the bud union had been fully buried. I had to move the plants a few years later and instead of digging up the two plants I'd originally planted, I unearthed a dozen, own root plants! Rooting International Herald Tribune in the mist propagator at The Huntington for a rose sale, we struck twelve cuttings and removed thirteen plants from the pot two weeks later. The bottom bud of one cutting actually grew a root and fell off the stem when I removed it from the medium. I carefully potted this one growth bud with a small root projecting from it, and watched it as it grew into a completely sellable plant within a few months. Harkness' Hybrid Hulthemia, "Euphrates" also experienced the erosion on that hill, and it rooted in many places! I had enough own root plants to give to just about anyone who wanted one! It was like digging up a black berry plant, layered cutting grown plants all over the area the plant covered.

As for "hardiness", those in harsh, cold climates have for years sought own root roses because those which tolerate their conditions are HARDIER own root than budded. Dr. Huey, which is the major root stock used in this country is rated as hardy to Zone 6 and higher. What do you do when you live in Zone 5 or lower and you want to grow cold hardy roses? There are roses which will endure extremes far lower than Zone 6, but if the only roots they have are often only hardy to Zone 6, you run a great risk of the roots being killed, resulting in the loss of the entire plant. If you grow your Maidens Blush (rated hardy to Zone 4) own root, it will likely endure much colder and harsh weather than Dr. Huey and come back for more. Dr. Huey will probably freeze to death at those extremes.

Many more recent modern roses, those introduced after the 1920s, will root beautifully and develop into wonderful, productive plants. At The Huntington, there stood for many years a bed of Iceberg bushes. They were in a very unfortunate location, being heavily shaded by over hanging trees and having to compete with extensive tree roots. Clair Martin, the Curator of Roses used to chuckle every time he showed anyone around the gardens. Most of the bushes were fairly uniform, except for a few which were significantly heavier and huskier. All endured the same awful conditions, but the budded Iceberg were consistently smaller and thinner than the own root plants. Right beside this bed stands the huge iron pergola in the Main Rose Garden. On each of its four corners there is an enormous Mermaid rose planted. All four were initially budded, but one died. We rooted a replacement and within two years, you couldn't tell which was own root and which were budded unless you knew which had been replaced.

When labor was cheap, budding was a great way to produce rose plants. But, as wages, insurance, work place restrictions, etc.,  increase, budding is getting far too expensive to be the primary method of producing rose plants. Much of the rooting process can be computerized, making it more consistent and producing a superior "crop" of plants at a greatly reduced labor cost. As more and more introducers switch to own root, you're going to see more and more new varieties which won't be introduced unless they DO root easily, quickly and well, then perform well on their own roots. A good case in point is J&P's "Henry Fonda", a brilliant yellow rose which is great here in Southern California. They'd initially produced it as a "New Generation Rose", an own root plant, but it failed to perform well over their required areas and has been put back on the budding list. Conversely, the Old Garden Rose, Mme. Alfred Carriere, a Noisette, produces huge, thick wood easily and quickly own root, making budding it a waste of time. Many Teas and Tea Noisettes take time to root and a while longer than budded to develop into large plants. But, they usually DO result in husky, productive, extremely long lived plants on their own roots, OFTEN out living budded plants. And, with NO root stock suckers as there is no root stock. One reason, for some rose types, I would suggested budded plants is for any rose which suckers own root. Species roses are known for colonizing areas by suckering. Rugosas and some other Old Garden Rose types, also sucker madly. If you want to grow any of these without having them take over your entire garden, a budded plant will prevent them from helping themselves to more acreage than you wish to allow them. If you want a colony of a particular rose which suckers, you either want it own root, or you want to bury the bud union deeply enough so it roots and begins throwing itself throughout your garden.

Berrie, have you ever been on a "Rose Rustle"? It's where "Rustlers" go out into abandoned towns, cemeteries, and homesteads seeking roses which have remained long after the humans who planted them have died or moved on. Many previously thought extinct roses of many classes have been rediscovered in these mostly inhospitable places, surviving for decade after decade without any human assistance, and nearly universally on their own roots. Many more are grown and offered commercially under study names until their true identities are discovered. Go here on Help Me Find and take a look at those which have been listed.

Then, take a look at the offerings from Vintage Gardens, a sponsoring nursery here on Help Me Find, and look at the "found roses" they offer. As for own root roses being bad plants, remember, all of the roses propagated by Vintage, Ashdown and Sequoia (not to mention dozens of other small nurseries here and abroad) ARE own root. Obviously, these producers and the many  thousands of their satisfied customers, know many roses DO have sufficiently hardy, vigorous and strong root systems and DO develop into good garden plants.

I "discovered" a "found rose" in Crestline, California some twenty years ago. It had grown for years beside the drive way of The Mulberry Tree Antique Shop in town. I asked about the rose and the owner said she'd been trying to get rid of the plant, but it refused to die! It was scraped off at the ground level by snow plows every year. She dug it out and it frequently endured doses of salt thrown on the ground to melt the snow and prevent ice from forming. I asked if I might collect a piece to grow and she told me to dig it up as it would NOT die! She was right! It grows in a bed at The Huntington Library and was even offered under my study name of "Crestline Mulberry" by Arena Roses in one of their first catalogs. This rose went through Hades every year, even tolerating shade, salt and hard freezes, ON ITS OWN ROOTS, and it refused to die. I don't know about you, but I would call that "HARDY".

Yes, there are some roses which will not perform well on their own roots. Two immediately come to mind. I love the off beat roses, those with odd colors. Grey Pearl, "The Mouse", is a 1945 McGredy Hybrid Tea. It is a "love it or hate it" rose because of its very unusual color. It has what has been called a "death gene". It will develop a strong, vigorous cane topped with a large cluster of its magnificent blooms, then die to the root. It makes sense to me. The color would never attract a pollinator insect, so why would Nature waste good genes on it? It would NEVER succeed in Nature without Man's intervention. This rose will root, but it will NOT develop into a good, productive plant. And, own root, it will die to spite you! A similar rose, introduced in 1959 by Meilland, Fantan, is even worse as a plant. Even budded, it is a weak, sickly thing which teases you with an occasional exquisite flower. Own root, it is a train wreck!

Back to The Huntington...for years, they've grown a huge bush of the 1927 Hybrid Tea, Autumn. Each year, this plant grew six to eight feet by about the same. It was usually covered with long stemmed, fragrant, multicolored wonderful flowers any time it was warm and sunny. This ancient plant is own root. It is heavily virused and grows in the shade of some of the same trees which shaded the bed of Iceberg, yet, it still grew and bloomed like a huge weed! I've often joked that budding Autumn would act like a dwarfing agent, like the dwarfing root stock you use to create dwarf and semi dwarf fruit trees. Mr. Lincoln, 1965 Hybrid Tea, at least here in Southern California, is another which gets huge own root. And, blooms its head off!

Berrie, once you've had the opportunity to observe many roses in many different locations, under many different conditions and cultural practices, you'll begin to see what Mr. Moore has always said..."Once you thing you know the rules, the rose goes and changes them!" If the rose is vigorous and if it roots easily, it will likely be a good own root specimen as long as it's properly taken care of and not in a climate which is unsuitable for it. If it's a weak, sickly grower budded, it's likely not going to make a good own root candidate. If the rose was introduced prior to the 1920s, it will more than likely root fairly easily, and will likely grow well in its temperature zone range, provided it's given the minimum care, or benign neglect, it requires. There are just too many variables in roses, as well as in life, for anyone to make an absolute, blanket statement and expect to be correct. The best you can expect to do is to qualify your statement with something like, "in my observation", "in my climate", "under my conditions and cultural practices". At least then, you can make hard statements like you've made and not hang a target on your chest.

Reply #7 of 10 posted 26 JUL 06
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Reply #8 of 10 posted 26 JUL 06 by Mike Fitts
Excellent response Kim.  I love reading about your experiences with roses. Your writing is easy to understand and easy to learn from. I don't think there are many people that know more about roses than you, yet you have a genuine humble nature in which you relay your responses.Thanks, Mike Fitts
Reply #9 of 10 posted 26 JUL 06 by Rupert, Kim L.
Thanks, Mike. Good to see you! Kim
Reply #10 of 10 posted 27 NOV 20 by Vspady
Hi Kim,
Thank you for describing how you have had luck getting miniature roses to propagate with cuttings. I have not been having luck with miniatures, while I enjoy adequate success with English and Tea rose cuttings. If you have any resources you can recommend with videos, photos, or diagrams, I would be all over that! Thanks again!
Reply #11 of 10 posted 27 NOV 20 by Rupert, Kim L.
Hi Vanessa, thank you. I don't know of any miniature specific information about propagation. Generally, minis haven't been difficult to root in my experience. If you can root Teas, which are generally not as easy to root as many other types, you should be able to coax minis to cooperate. Google "How to root miniature roses" and it will bring up numerous videos and articles. I hope they help! Kim
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