HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
Mel Hulse
most recent 24 NOV 14 SHOW ALL
Initial post 4 JAN 07 by Mel Hulse
The study name came from the street where it was found.  The De la Vina family is
one of the old founding Spanish families of the original Presidio of Santa Barbara.
Reply #1 of 1 posted 24 NOV 14 by Donald's Roses Garden
Thank your for the clarification
most recent 24 MAR 10 SHOW ALL
Initial post 4 APR 07 by Mel Hulse
Information from Carolyn Supinger, Manager of Sequoia Nursery, Visalia, California:

'Thanks to Sue' was named for Sue Salvatore who passed away on April 5,2002 from cancer at the age of 50. Sue came to work at the Sequoia Nursery in February of 1996. Sue was responsible for many of the things that make Ralph Moore's nursery famous. She helped Carolyn get started with the line of old roses. Careful not to waste anything, Sue started pressing blooms which became the basis of the bookmarks which everyone familiar with Sequoia knows. She worked with Mr. Moore in potting up the new seedlings which became the basis of future years' releases. Sue was a rock for Carolyn during Carolyn's mother's Alzheimers and a major asset to Sequoia. She is sorely missed.
Reply #1 of 2 posted 10 APR 07 by matissesmom
Thank you, Mel. Carolyn told me to look. She was a very pretty lady and
Carolyn speaks so highly of her.. I'll have to see if I can obtain this rose.
It should be and will be treasured, by me.
Reply #2 of 2 posted 24 MAR 10 by lookin4you2xist
Mel, you are missed. How funny, I was wondering who sue was! Great repeat as it says in the description. Has been in the ground (Tampa Bay) since last July, and has a lot of growth on it. Very high constitution.
most recent 21 MAR 10 SHOW ALL
Initial post 25 FEB 04 by Unregistered Guest
What is the Sombreuil Rose a hybrid of? Or how did it become a hybrid, meaning what characteristics did the maker of this rose need/want? please answer as soon as possible!!!
Reply #1 of 14 posted 4 MAY 03 by Unregistered Guest
The family tree of a rose can fill a page but if you look up Sombreuil on HelpMeFind and then click on the paratage. This will give you the information you want.
Reply #2 of 14 posted 26 APR 06 by Mel Hulse
Note that the listing for the rose in commerce as 'Sombreuil' has been updated.  The actual parentage is unknown.
Reply #3 of 14 posted 26 APR 06 by William

Its parent is Gigantesque x Unknown seedling.  Sombreuil Antique Climber was created around 1850.  This is all I know.


Jackson & Perkins Customer Service

Reply #4 of 14 posted 26 APR 06 by Mel Hulse
I've seen that parentage.  Do you have a reference?

Trouble is that no one seems to be able to find a plant of it before Wyant introduced Colonial White.

The historical rose is the Tea, 'Mlle. de Sombreuil'  which see.

This is not to detract from the quality of this great climber.

Reply #6 of 14 posted 28 APR 06 by William

When Jackson & Perkins acquired the Sombreuil we were also given privy to some of its history.  Don't know much more than what I've already stated.  I'm corresponding with our horticulturalist Mike Cady hoping he has more information.


Jackson & Perkins Customer Service

Reply #7 of 14 posted 28 APR 06 by Jeri Jennings
William -- Suggest you send Mr. Cady to Vintage Gardens.

Reply #8 of 14 posted 28 APR 06 by Mel Hulse
I will be very interested as to when and from whom J&P received the rose J&P sells as Sombreuil.  Particularly interesting would be any reference to Roses of Yesterday and Today in that provenance.

Reply #5 of 14 posted 26 APR 06 by Jeri Jennings
See reply page:
This rose is not the historic rose, 'Mlle. de Sombreuil,' which was bred from 'Gigantesque.'

It is not a Climbing Tea Rose
It is not a Tea Rose

It is a magnificent climbing rose, of probable Wichuriana origin. 
Parentage, date, and creator (if any) are unknown, and will probably remain unknown forever.

Jeri Jennings
Reply #9 of 14 posted 21 MAY 09 by Roselover24
sombrueil is a clg tea bred by robert in 1850 it is cross of Reine MARIE Henriette,a clg ht
and Bardou Job, a cross of a bourbonxht both unknown.
Reply #10 of 14 posted 21 MAY 09 by Cass
The rose documented on this page is not a climbing Tea, but rather a large-flowered climber. Nor is Mlle de Sombreuil, the Tea rose of the same name, a climbing Tea.

This Sombreuil is a large-flowered climber introduced in the late 40's or early 50's. It's parentage is unknown. Please check Modern Roses 12 for a long-awaited clarification that this rose is in no way an Old Garden Rose, despite the spurious introduction date listed in Modern Roses of 1880.
Reply #11 of 14 posted 21 MAY 09 by jedmar
I never heard of the parentage with Reine Marie Henriette and Bardou Job for 'Sombreuil' before. Do you have a source for that?
Reply #12 of 14 posted 22 MAY 09 by billy teabag
Both 'Reine Marie Henriette' and 'Bardou Job' were bred well after 1850, so they cannot be the parents of Robert's 1850 'Sombreuil'/ 'Mlle de Sombreuil'.
Does this parentage apply to another rose, another breeder?
Reply #13 of 14 posted 21 MAR 10 by kev
sombreuil is a tea rose ,as to what its parentage is it would be speculation as many of the roses pre 19oo were haphazard cross with little or no records to the crossingings being kept.record keeping for roses really only became the art form it is now with the inception of the struggle for breeders right spear headed by antoine and francis meilland and robert pyle.
Reply #14 of 14 posted 21 MAR 10 by jedmar
The Tea rose by Robert is now listed as 'Mademoiselle de Sombreuil', while the name 'Sombreuil' is attached to this unknown Climber - an unfortunate decision of the ARA.
most recent 23 OCT 08 SHOW ALL
Initial post 25 FEB 04 by Jim Colahan
I have been advised by a local rose grower that "Irene Watts" is actually a Hybrid Tea from "Gruss An Aachen". Having both of them in my collection I see a similarity between them.
However, "Gruss An Aachen" has a very complex lineage and is listed as a China/Bengal,Hybrid Tea, 1st Polyantha rose, etc. Is "Irene Watts" truly a China rose by Guillot and/or is there information to link her to "Gruss An Aachen" ?
Reply #1 of 5 posted 8 JUN 04 by Mel Hulse
It is generally believed that the Irene Watts in the US traces back to an imported plant so attributed by Peter Beales. Many believe that his attribution was in error and that the plant imported and sold in the US (and probably in Europe) is 'Gruss an Aachen.' His web site currently says he has the real 'Irene Watts.'

In any case, it is a fine rose. I grow it.

There is/was a Guillot 'Irene Watts.' The question is does it still exist?
Reply #2 of 5 posted 24 MAY 08 by Kiwirose
Tasman Bay Roses in New Zealand, have Gruss an Aachen, Pink Gruss an Aachen and Irene Watts in their catalogue.
Reply #3 of 5 posted 25 MAY 08 by Cass
It would be wonderful to compare detailed photos of Irene Watts and Gruss an Aachen .
Reply #4 of 5 posted 25 MAY 08 by Jocelyn Janon
The rose sold under the name 'Irene Watts' in New Zealand by Guillot themselves and by, as far as I know, everybody else are all 'GruB an Aachen' or its pink sport.

There is a possibility that an old plant of the real 'Irene Watts' has been found in New Zealand, in a private garden.
This is under study by a member of the Guillot Family and the results (positive or not). should be known in a couple of years.
We'll keep you up to date...
Reply #5 of 5 posted 23 OCT 08 by Unregistered Guest
My email box was full and "bounced back" for four days before I realized there was a problem. Thank you, Kim Rupert, for replying to me and giving me so much helpful information, and I'm enjoying everyone's feedback very much. I will take your advice regarding "Fiona" and keep looking. Where I live in the DC area, there are two roses that I can't identify (I am new to this "sight-reading" roses) located on the grounds of an apartment building: one is definitely a species rose, the other is a deep, beet-root purple that is exquisite. My neighbor always had the landscapers chop it down in the summer because she complained about "bugs" in her apartment, and I couldn't talk her out of leaving it alone. I took cuttings and sent them to Carolyn Supinger, but they didn't root. I may have done this improperly. The species is, of course, once-blooming for about three weeks at the end of May here, is deep pink, cupped , 20 petals (I think), has a sharp, lovely sweet, myrrh fragrance, blue-green foliage and the stems have small, intermittent thorns. This rose blooms in full shade, to my surprise, and it suckers. However, I was never able to ascertain its full height because the landscapers (again) kept cutting it. Is anyone able to give me an idea what this is? I will have to describe the purple one in detail if I get a reply. I did call several rosarians in my area, but none would come out to look at these two roses. I filled out research forms by ARS and Antique Rose Emporium-no luck). By the way, J. Benjamin Williams, who used to live near my late mother, visited her when her Gruss an Aachen sported. He was so excited that he stepped all over her impatiens getting to her rose. (Hey, what are impatiens compared to a "sport"). He couldn't, unfortunately, recommend that I try a cutting because the stem was young and thin, and it was the only one. Thanks, everyone. Sincerely, Victoria Blue Wolf.
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