HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
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Initial post 22 FEB 15 by mmanners
For those of you who grow them both, please compare "Flamingo Gardens Tea" with 'Souv. de Pierre Notting'. I think we may have a match. We need to run the DNA analysis on them, but in the garden, they certainly look alike.

Reply #1 of 19 posted 23 FEB 15 by Patricia Routley
A close look at the receptacle might help, Malcolm. The main page says "receptacle long and slender". The Australian book 'Tea Roses: Old Roses for Warm Gardens" page 184 says the receptacle for 'Souvenir de Pierre Notting' is "Small, flared cup, some glands at base"
Reply #2 of 19 posted 17 MAR 15 by celeryrose
The Flamingo Gardens Tea I have doesn't match the description on the Souvenir de Pierre Notting on this site. For one thing the petals are quite substantial and has no problem with balling in wet weather at all, and we get a lot of rain here. Also, there are not as many petals as in some of the pictures of Souv. de Pierre on this site. The receptacle shape of the Souvenir de Pierre Notting in "Tea Roses, Old Roses for Warm Gardens" is definitely" not the same as mine. It is much shorter and squatter. Unfortunately, the buds are too small right now so I can't show you a picture of it. The descriptions and pictures from Rogue Valley Roses, where my plant came from, are different for the two roses. They say that Pierre is aka Yellow Maman Cochet. implying that there is some resemblance to Mama Cochet.. My Flamingo does not in any way resemble my Mama Cochet. Malcolm, you said that Rogue Valley's Flamingo came from you so I am assuming that my plant is correct.
Reply #3 of 19 posted 21 MAR 15 by mmanners
I compared our plants again today. They appear to be identical in every respect (leaves, prickles, buds, calyx shape, sepals, the flower itself). I can't prove our 'Souv. de Pierre Notting' is the true original, but it is the one commonly in commerce in the U.S.
Reply #4 of 19 posted 22 MAR 15 by Patricia Routley much shorter and squatter.

Have a look at 'Etoile de Lyon' receptacle on p99 of the 'Tea Roses' book.
Reply #5 of 19 posted 22 MAR 15 by mmanners
The receptacle on my two plants is absolutely identical. I have to wonder who described it as long and slender -- they are, indeed, short and squat. And we have the original source plants of FGT.
Reply #6 of 19 posted 22 MAR 15 by Patricia Routley
Identical to what? Each other? The p99 photo of 'Etoile de Lyon' or p184 'Souvenir de Pierre Notting'?
As you have the original source plants of "Flamingo Gardens tea", we have altered the main page to read Receptacle: short and squat.
Good side-on photos of pedicel and buds are needed. No more full-frontal, full-bloom gorgeous photos showing only colour (which can change). Foundlings need ugly but clear photos showing the rose's character - canes, prickles, leaves, the bush, and side-on photos of buds!!

I note from the 2011-114 reference for 'Souvenir de Pierre Notting' that the San Jose Heritage Rose Garden bush of 'SdPN' was the same as that pictured on p184 of 'Tea Roses'.
Reply #7 of 19 posted 23 MAR 15 by mmanners
Patricia, Identical to each other in the garden (our FGT and the SdPN sold and grown in the US).
Reply #8 of 19 posted 23 MAR 15 by celeryrose
Malcolm, mine is the plant that has the long slender receptacle. Since you have the original plant, clearly my is not Flamingo Gardens tea. Except for the flowers, it does not resemble Souvenir De Pierre Notting. The flowers have great substance and has no trouble with balling at all unlike the description of Pierre Notting and Catherine Mermet and Mama Cochet. It is also more disease resistant than either of those two, even my unforgiving rain forest climate. The buds are slimmer than some of the Souvenir de Pierre Notting pictures shown here. I have more "beauty shots" of my rose but of course they won't help identify it. It is a shame since it is one of the jewels of the garden, as a plant second only to General Schablikine. Probably more suitable than here than the real Flamingo. I guess it is just another one of those great mystery roses. I will remove my pictures here to avoid confusion, but I wish I had a place to put them.
Reply #9 of 19 posted 23 MAR 15 by mmanners
That's really odd, in that your front-on flowers look exactly right for it. I wonder if its receptacle/calyx shape varies with climate conditions?
Reply #10 of 19 posted 23 MAR 15 by celeryrose
It is odd isn't it? I'll keep my pictures up until I can get one of the latest batch of flowers to show the receptacle. You can sort of see the receptacle in my picture of the sprawling young plant. The flower to the right of the white tag (declaring it is Flamingo Gardens Tea) you can just see the stem end of the receptacle showing. The fact that you can see it that far back of the flower speaks to how long it is. The shape is similar to that of the Hume's Blush Scented China directly behind it. Whatever the case, it is such a good rose, I hope it can be identified and everyone in a warm climate gets a chance to grow it, whatever it's name. One thing you can clear up for me, are the petals of Flamingo/Pierre Notting substantial like Mrs. B R Cant/General Schablikine or thin and subject to balling like Maman Cochet/Rosette Delizy/Catherine Mermet? The description of Pierre Notting in this site suggest the latter while mine is the former.
Reply #11 of 19 posted 24 MAR 15 by Patricia Routley
Celeryrose – one of the very good identification clues you have, is that your rose came from Rogue Valley Roses. If you do an Advanced Search for yellow tea roses, you come up with a list. Quickly scanning down and searching for the N for nurseries, you can open up each possibility to see if Rogue Valley carries that rose.
Hopefully their listing is updated regularly – and on that surmise I’ve come up with five possibilities:
‘Alliance Franco Russe’ – discounted because the petals point out and it balls.
‘Marie van Houtte’ – discounted because it often has a pink edge.
‘Alexander Hill Gray’ – discounted because it has 60-80 petals
‘Safrano’- Jedmar’s photo of William Paul’s 1848 photo show a long pedicel (such as your rose has) and the receptacle is clearly shown. Marcir’s photo also has a clearly shown bud. However I am inclined to discount ‘Safano’ because of Billy’s photo shows a receptacle which seems too long and rounded.

That leaves ‘Etoile de Lyon’ and I believe you should really look at this possibility.
This is compounded by member Peachiekean (see Etoile de Lyon comments) who also bought a ‘mystery’ rose from Rogue Valley and she has wondered if hers could be ‘Etoile de Lyon’.

I am really hesitating about marking your photos ‘Photo error’ not as I have never found a way of reversing it. Perhaps if you agree you could move your photos out of “Flamingo Gardens Tea” and into ‘Etoile de Lyon’ noting that they are “possibly Etoile de Lyon”.
Reply #12 of 19 posted 24 MAR 15 by celeryrose
Thanks for doing the research. I am very familiar with the tea and china list of Rogue Valley. Since my rose is so obviously a tea. that is where I concentrated my search. Alliance Franco Russe may be the same as "fake perle" in the Australian book and doesn't resemble my Flamingo. Perle itself is reputed to be a horrible baller which my Flamingo is not.. I have Marie Van Houtte. Definitely not her. Probably not Mrs. Dudley Cross either since that is suppose to look like Marie Van Houtte. Not Safrano, too many petals, too short. Also Rogue Valley has only just started to carry Safrano, long after I bought my Flamingo. Etoile de Lyion has a squat receptacle, too thorny and doesn't look like it has the bright red coloured new growth. I don't think I will move the picture there Rogue Valley also carries Souvenir de Pierre Notting but I have never seen it in stock. The rose it most resembles is .... Flamingo Gardens tea! Even though it doesn't ball as the description of Souvenir de Pierre Notting says, I think I will leave it here for now. The buds are just forming now for the first flush. I will observe it very closely. Perhaps it is as Malcolm said, very different climate created very different growth.
Reply #13 of 19 posted 24 MAR 15 by Patricia Routley
Consider adding your list of roses to HelpMefind. It would have been good to know what you have and what you don't.
Reply #14 of 19 posted 25 MAR 15 by celeryrose
I've spoken to Janet Inada from Rogue Valley, she remembers buying the Flamingo Gardens Tea from Malcolm. Since Malcolm thinks the face on flower looks right I will assume I have the right plant. I have bought more than 70 plants from Janet and have only had two wrong plants, both known issues. My plant is now three years old so maybe it has settled down and will produce normal shaped flowers. She also has Souvenir de Pierre Notting however hers is not the same plant as Flamingo Garden Tea.
Reply #16 of 19 posted 3 JUN 17 by scvirginia
This comment is late to the party, but I understand that 'Souvenir de Pierre Notting' has been confused in commerce by at least one vendor with 'Mademoiselle Franziska Krüger'. This might explain why RVR's 'SdPN' did not look like "Flamingo Gardens Tea"?

Or.... perhaps the 'SdPN' that Malcolm Manners received is actually 'MFK'?

Reply #17 of 19 posted today by HubertG
I'm wondering if 'Flamingo Gardens Tea', because of its thornlessness and colour might be the original 'Mme. Charles'.
Reply #18 of 19 posted today by mmanners
It appears to be in all ways identical to 'Souv. de Pierre Notting' as commonly grown and sold in the US, AND to match, perfectly, Billy teabag's photos in Western Australia of SDPN. I'm hoping this summer that we can run DNA of the two against 'Maréchal Niel' and 'Maman Cochet' (listed parents of SDPN) and see what we come up with.
Reply #19 of 19 posted today by HubertG
That would be exciting. Just curious - when you run a DNA test such as you described, can you keep the results in some sort of database for later comparisons of other roses tested? Or does everything need to be repeated for each test?
Reply #15 of 19 posted 19 SEP 16 by mmanners
Finally, I just now added comparison photos.
most recent 2 days ago HIDE POSTS
Initial post 2 days ago by HubertG
I found this in the Sydney Morning Herald of 26 November 1926, page 12

"Mr. C. W. Heyde, president of the National Rose Society and a member of the council of the Horticultural Society of New South Wales, on his return to Sydney yesterday after a tour abroad, said that the interest taken in horticulture in England amazed the visitor. Mr. Heyde secured a quantity of rose species seeds from the Royal Horticultural Society's gardens, which he will use in experimental
work in rose hybridisation in Australia."
Reply #1 of 3 posted 2 days ago by Patricia Routley
Thanks for that HubertG. About 27 years from this notice (1926] to the introduction of his only rose (<1953) tells me that his experiments weren’t too successful.
Reply #2 of 3 posted 2 days ago by HubertG
Well, maybe lol, but I was wondering if his 'Captain Watkins' might have eventually come about via a line from this imported seed.
Reply #3 of 3 posted 2 days ago by Patricia Routley
Anything is possible HubertG. I have just had a look at my indexes to the Australian Rose Annuals and he wrote no articles there. The leaves look wich to me, but the plant is almost thornless. There are the usual tiny prickles under the leaves; the stipules have no (multiflora) hairs, but I am sure there are miniscule glands (eyesight is not what it used to be). The pedicel seems smooth, but I think there are the same tiny glands there as there is a rough feel.
most recent 3 days ago SHOW ALL
Initial post 9 OCT 13 by Jay-Jay
This rose, in my opinion, has a medium strong bitter-almond/cedar/rose scent.
Reply #1 of 2 posted 3 days ago by HubertG
Jay-Jay, I agree. I was smelling it today and it has an unusual woody/cedar component to it and that almond fragrance too, although if I hadn't have read your assessment, I wouldn't have necessarily identified these components on my own. The scent is very nice.
Reply #2 of 2 posted 3 days ago by Jay-Jay
Yes it is! There are more HT's with that woody cedar component in their scents. Like Valencia (KOReklia), Prince Jardinier and Parole.
most recent 3 days ago SHOW ALL
Initial post 6 days ago by HubertG
The long, pointed bud is really quite distinct on this variety. It's the kind of feature that I imagine might be included in early catalogue descriptions under its original name. It might be helpful in its identification.
Reply #1 of 5 posted 5 days ago by Patricia Routley
it certainly might be. I have never really noticed the buds on the budded plant being as long as the own root potted plant showed recently. But agree, it is something to watch for. (I will contact you in May for a postal address, but you can start preparing a planting hole fairly soon. A cutting grown plant has your name on it. )
Reply #2 of 5 posted 5 days ago by HubertG
Patricia, many thanks, I'm looking forward to it (and whatever fragrance it might have).
Do you think it is a variety that might have had exhibition potential in its time? I ask because I'm trying to look up old varieties that are potential identities, and when I look at the photo of 8 March 2014 (id 244836) it seems to have pretty good form in its opening bud stage, even though other photos show it quite loose in its open stage.
Reply #3 of 5 posted 5 days ago by Patricia Routley
No I don’t think it is an exhibition rose, simply because it doesn’t keep its early shape for long.
I did a most interesting piece of research once on the roses recommended by the National Rose Society of Western Australia from 1933 to 1969. It showed the exhibition and garden roses and I managed to squeeze in a very basic colour guide as well. Because they were recommended, I am presuming that more of them were planted and the chances of some of them surviving is probably quite high. From that listing there are a few that I need to look at more closely, but really, at this stage none of these really jumps out at me.
Ballet 1858
Editor McFarland 1931
Eiffel Tower 1963
First Love 1950
Korovo 1931
Margaret 1954
Michelle Meilland 1945
Show Girl 1945
Silver Lining 1958
Sterling 1933
Reply #4 of 5 posted 4 days ago by Patricia Routley
Not Mrs. Georgia Chobe. See refs for that rose, and main page for "Ruth Spencer's Chowerup Pink Tea".
But thanks for the possibility (as evidenced in your refs)
Reply #5 of 5 posted 3 days ago by HubertG
Yes, I was considering 'Mrs. Georgia Chobe' but that seems to be more of an exhibition type.
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