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Johno 
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Rose Listing Omission
Subzero
White, strong fragrance, 1.5m
Ref: www.wagnersrosenursery.com.au/collections/2024-new-releases/products/subzero
Reply #1 of 15 posted 3 days ago by HMF supporting memberPatricia Routley
Johno, I presume this is a Meilland Rose?
Reply #2 of 15 posted 3 days ago by HMF supporting memberJohno
I would not make this assumption as Wagner's Roses has recently increased the number of firms it has taken on, being agents now for Delbard, Brundrett, Barni and David Austin.
Reply #3 of 15 posted 3 days ago by HMF supporting memberPatricia Routley
I assumed, because the Victorian Racing Club website had an article on “Subbie and Graham” and have added a bit on the bottom:
“A brilliant white rose bred specifically for the Salisbury Subzero Memorial Rose Garden by Kim Syrus of Corporate Roses in South Australia.”
Reply #4 of 15 posted 3 days ago by HMF supporting memberMargaret Furness
It would be nice to find the breeder's code for these new roses. And for Lady of the House.
Reply #5 of 15 posted 3 days ago by HMF supporting memberPatricia Routley
Agree. The code for ‘Lady of the House’ is MASasch.
Reply #6 of 15 posted 3 days ago by HMF supporting memberMargaret Furness
Thanks Patricia. I tried to track that down earlier, without success.
Reply #7 of 15 posted 3 days ago by HMF supporting memberPatricia Routley
Me too. But Knight’s Roses is now listing the ‘Lady of the House’ code and we can thank Jedmar for finding that.
Reply #8 of 15 posted 3 days ago by HMF supporting memberJohno
With that bit of information, it is a very good assumption to make.
Lady of the House was kept under the wraps for a long time and as far as I know you can still only purchase direct from the charity.
Reply #9 of 15 posted 3 days ago by HMF supporting memberPatricia Routley
Another assumption - MEIfaissel ?
Reply #10 of 15 posted 3 days ago by HMF supporting memberMargaret Furness
I don't think Wagner's would introduce the same rose under two names. (MEIfassel Introduced in Australia by Wagner's Rose Nursery in 2016 as 'Brilliance'.)
Reply #11 of 15 posted 3 days ago by HMF supporting memberPatricia Routley
But Corporate Roses (agent for Meilland) could have given the white MEIfaissel to the Victorian Racing Club in memory of the snowy white horse called Subzero.
Reply #12 of 15 posted 3 days ago by HMF supporting memberJohno
You may very well be right. I only purchased Brilliance (Meifaissel) this year and I can see the similarities. Both grow to 1.5m and have strong fragrance. It is interesting that both are charity roses. If they are the same, I do question the ethics of a grower having the variety under two different names in their catalogue.
Reply #13 of 15 posted 3 days ago by HMF supporting memberPatricia Routley
I’ve opened a page for ‘Subzero’.
Reply #14 of 15 posted 3 days ago by HMF supporting memberMargaret Furness
No, why would it say "...bred by Kim Syrus"?
Reply #15 of 15 posted 2 days ago by HMF supporting memberjedmar
HMF Admin, can this discussion be moved to the new rose listing 91162 please?
I don’t think it can Jedmar. I’ve just copied from Website omissions and pasted to ‘Subzero’.
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#1 of 7 posted
12 DEC by
jedmar
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Thank you, Patricia!
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Pierre Arditi (MEIcalanq), renamed as 'Subzero' is a 2024 new release rose, introduced in Australia by Corporate Roses. Patricia Routley, you may have to merge these two files together. There is also a confusion about MEIcalanq and MEIdiaphaz ( Jean Moreau: National Pride). Matthias Meilland has already said in a comment in MEIcalanq that these two are two distinct varieties.
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I am sure you are right Indra Ashokkumar. Have you seen a reference which links Subzero with MEIcalanq?
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#4 of 7 posted
8 days ago by
Johno
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Can confirm that Subzero is MEIcalanq and not MEIfaissel. Petal count is much higher, very double.
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Thank you both. Subzero merged with MEIcalanq. (a reference is always preferable).
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#6 of 7 posted
4 days ago by
jedmar
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The Rose Society of South Australia gives today on fb the story of Subzero (Meicalanq)
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Thanks Jedmar. Reference added.
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If plant not produce stripe id-Black delight
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#1 of 4 posted
5 MAR 22 by
Johno
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I assume that as a sport of Hocus Pocus which in turn is a sport of Black Beauty (Kordes, 1999), the photo shows a reverting back to Black Beauty. Neither sport is stable, and it is interesting to note that Black Beauty is in turn a sport of Frisco (Kordes, 1986).
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You are correct. Abracadabra is very unstable and reverts back to Black Beauty frequently. My plant had one branch that reverted to Frisco.
This photo should have been posted under Black Beauty.
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#3 of 4 posted
12 days ago by
Johno
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No, I think it is in the right location. If the rose was purchased as Abracadabra then the photograph simply illustrates that the sport is unstable. How do we know that this rose hasn't sported to something different again rather than exactly back to Black Beauty?
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I suppose where it should be posted is totally a matter of opinion. We do know that it reverts to Black Beauty and that's what this photo appears to be. I have extensive experience with this rose and could post photos with blooms of all types and colors. I only consider it Abracadabra when it has the characteristic appearance of Abracadabra. If you want to consider it Abracadabra when it reverts, that is up to you.
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Initial post
2 APR by
Johno
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In the Description Page could "Bred by David Austin...." please be added as this rose is not listed on HMF in the DA Plants Bred list.
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Done. Thank you Johno.
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Initial post
27 FEB by
Johno
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A slight inconsistency regarding the breeder for this rose. When you do a search for Vintage the banner heading gives ‘Vintage (hybrid tea, Carruth 2023)’. However, the description says ‘Bred by Christian Bédard (United States, before 2023)’.
Or, is this a case of having two bob each way?
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#1 of 2 posted
27 FEB by
jedmar
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Spring Park nursery says it is Tom Carruth, but maybe they were looking up on HMF.
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Tom Carruth confirmed this rose was bred by Christian Bédard. The rose name was erroneously not updated to reflect that correction.
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