HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
Andrew from Dolton
most recent 21 SEP SHOW ALL
Initial post 14 JUN 17 by Patricia Routley
I will start a new comment as the older discussion was of considerable length, as is this comment.

Because of the various spellings of Thibaut / Thibault / Thibaud, I had a look through the Roseraie de l'Hay 1900 catalogue looking for similar names but only found:
p58. 'Mme Thiebaut Sine'. Leveque 1886 H.R.
p58. 'Mme Victor Wibaut'. E. Verdier 1854 H.R.
p59. 'Mlle. Clementine Ribault'. Ribault 1885 H.R.
p64. 'Pierre Liabaud'. Liabaud 1887 H.R.
p71. 'Ch. Reybaut' (inconnu) Tea.
p91. 'Mme. Andre Theuriet' l'Hay 1899 H.T. no joy there.

Because of the lack of 'Mme Jules Thibaut /Thibault /Thibaud in the literature, I am wondering if if this could have been another of Nancy Lindsay's renamings. Looking at some dates:

1935 Allyson Hayward [in] Norah Lindsay. The Life And Art Of A Garden Designer
p190. [Norah visiting Johnny Johnston at Serre de la Madone in France] it has become twice as complicated as it was.... and too many pots in tiny gardens for my taste......
p195. At present there is nothing but red geraniums.....if he would only plant roses and jasmine.....

1946. Graham Stuart Thomas, Cuttings From My Garden Notebook
p146. James Russell and I [see 1959 note below] paid our first visit to Miss Lindsay's garden on June 30, 1946. The address was Manor Cottage, Sutton Courtney, Abingdon, Berkshire..... three of her main hunting grounds were Hidcote Manor (She was a friend of Lawrence Johnston) and ...... The thought-provoking names poured from her. For some years I was frustrated by these names because I could not find them in any of the old French books in my possession, nor in the Lindley Library. At length the reason dawned on me. Finding an unknown rose in an old garden without a name she let her fancy run free and coined a name for it. There were many others, all since resolved.

1946-47 RNRS Historic Rose Journal No. 37, 2009
Charles Quest-Ritson. ....there is a copy in the RHS Lindley Library of the slightly longer list that he [GST] issued the following year in 1946-47

1948 Allyson Hayward [in] Norah Lindsay. the Life And Art Of A Garden Designer
p243. Norah [mother of Nancy]] Lindsay died of cancer of the kidney on June 20, 1948.

1948. Graham Stuart Thomas - [in] The Graham Stuart Thomas Rose book
p6. The year 1948 was spent mostly in consolidating my own plants and getting to know the numerous varieties I had collected.

1949. Allyson Hayward. The Roses of Norah and Nancy Lindsay. [in] Rosa Mundi 2010 Vol 23, No. 2, p24
By approximately 1949, T. Hilling and others were carrying the [Nancy's] roses, and Nancy also began selling them directly from her Manor Cottage Nurseries. She produced a nursery catalogue titled Shrub Rose List describing her rose offerings

1949. The Gardeners Chronicle
p49 Long Barn Gardens, [Mulberry Green, Harlow, Essex] set out their attractive miniature rock gardens in pans, together with specimens of the Rose 'Madame Jules Thibaut'.

1958 Allyson Hayward [in] Norah Lindsay. the Life And Art Of A Garden Designer
p268 Lawrence Johnston 1871-1958. A close personal friend of Norah who often stayed with him at Hidcote and Serre de la Madone in France, he left the latter to Norah's daughter, Nancy.

A November 20, 1959 invoice from Sunningdale Nursery shows the landscape manager of the nursery was James Russell and nursery manager was Graham Thomas. (See 1946, p146 above)

1962, January 20
An Australian nursery imports 'Mme Jules Thibaud' from Sunningdale Nurseries, U.K.

1963 Shrub Roses of Today
p147 'Deane Ross. Mme Jules Thibaud'. A sport from 'Cécile Brunner' very near to it, but of peach colour rather than pink. I have been unable to trace its origins.

Other references which may or may not be relevant:
2009 RNRS Historic Rose Journal No. 37
p9. Bunyard travelled widely in France and Germany looking for roses to add to his collection.
p10. Graham Stuart Thomas may have bought Bunyard's collection

Vita Sackville-West was a lifelong friend of the Lindsay family.

Somewhere I have read that Nancy Lindsay's father left her 100 pounds a year, and her uncle Peter (Norah's brother) bequeathed her Manor Cottage. She used the rear of the cottage as a small nursery. I didn't scribble down the name of the nursery but seem to remember it was something like the Cottage Nursery. She did put out a catalogue and if anybody can find one or two of these, they would be most interesting.

It seems that we should call upon our English Heritage compatriots for any knowledge they may have of 'Mme. Jules Thibaud'.
Reply #1 of 17 posted 22 JUN 17 by Ozoldroser
From the Librarian at Glasnevin Botanic Garden on 21.6.2017:
I have checked the T. Hilling rose catalogues for 1948-49, 1950-51, 1951-52 and 1959-60 and also the rose section in the hardy nursery stock catalogue.  I didn't come across anything with Mme Jules Thibaud/Thibault/Thibaut. 
Reply #2 of 17 posted 22 JUN 17 by Patricia Routley
And a friend has checked an undated, pre-decimal Nancy Lindsay's Manor Cottage Nurseries catalogue (probably c1960s) and there was no mention of 'Mme. Jules Thibaud'.
Reply #4 of 17 posted 26 JUN 17 by Allyson Hayward
From Norah Lindsay's biographer:
I have an original Nancy Lindsay Manor Cottage Rose List and cannot find any reference to Mme Jules Thibaud
Reply #6 of 17 posted 26 JUN 17 by Andrew from Dolton
Ms Lindsay seem to court controversy with almost every plant she names. Is she really reliable enough to be trusted?
Reply #8 of 17 posted 27 JUN 17 by Patricia Routley
For our New Zealand members:
Murray Radka has advised "The plants [of Mme. Jules Thibaud] I bought from Trevor Griffiths and Nigel Pratt (under mystery China) appear to be identical.

Tasman Bay Roses has advised
However unfortunately Ben [Nigel's son] does not know anything about this rose, guess this was just between Nigel & Murray at that time, I suggest you contact Murray once again and gather his memories of the rose as Nigel sadly is no longer with us.

Does anybody else have any information about the New Zealand "Mystery China"?
Reply #9 of 17 posted 30 JUN 17 by Patricia Routley
The last two comments are from me, and as I can't reply to myself, the sequence is going to look a bit odd. Never mind.
I have sought advice from the founder of Heritage Ross in Australia, Trevor Nottle, to see if he could add any tiny scrap of information that could help. He has replied via Rose Marsh:
"Deane Ross was heavily into exchanging budwood when he was alive, the 70's being his period of highest activity. He got a lot of old varieties from Trevor Griffiths, Sangerhausen, Sunningdale and other English sources. He was urged to get buds from Sangerhausen by me, Walter Duncan and David Ruston and while he brought in many more varieties, I do not find any ref to 'Mme. Jules Thibout' [sic] among our correspondence. Mainly he tended to look for, and get things like teas, chinas, bourbons, the roses bred by Geschwind, Poulsen roses, species and roses that repeat their flowering."
Reply #7 of 17 posted 26 JUN 17 by Patricia Routley
I am very grateful for this information Allyson and may I ask if there was there any date on this List? You have written "approximately 1949" when she began her nursery but I don't know how long Nancy operated her Manor Cottage Nursery and if she produced more than the one catalogue. (I enjoyed your book on her mother Norah Lindsay. The Life And Art of a Garden Designer so much that I really hope you write another on Nancy.)
Reply #3 of 17 posted 23 JUN 17 by Patricia Routley
Another friend has advised that Jean Hillier has checked the Hillier Rose Catalogues from 1940 – 1949 and found nothing.

I note that Charles Quest-Ritson has written in the 2009 Historic Rose Journal No.37,
p8. Graham Stuart Thomas ....joined T Hilling & Co.... his brief in 1931 was to ..... Tommy Hilling promoted him quickly until Graham became his general manager.
p12 .....meanwhile Hilling's catalogue, presumably written by Graham....

p13. Nowhere in any of his works did Graham give credit for the true source of his old roses, though the hints are there if you wish to follow them up.
Reply #5 of 17 posted 26 JUN 17 by Andrew from Dolton
Thomas says "I have been unable to trace its origin" In my addition of Shrub Roses of Today.
Reply #10 of 17 posted 1 SEP 17 by Patricia Routley
I received today a 1972 A. Ross & Son. S.A. catalogue as a gift from Glennis Clark in Sydney. (Thank you Glennis. It is much appreciated). This is the earliest A. Ross catalogue I have and I spent the afternoon indexing this catalogue and note:
After importing 'Mme. Jules Thibaud' in 1962 from Sunningdale Nurseries; and mentioning the rose in his 1963 book Shrub Roses of Today; A. Ross & Son did not list the rose in their 1972 catalogue.
Reply #11 of 17 posted 1 SEP 17 by Give me caffeine
"1963 Shrub Roses of Today
p147 'Deane Ross. Mme Jules Thibaud'. A sport from 'Cécile Brunner' very near to it, but of peach colour rather than pink. I have been unable to trace its origins."

Well that throws another spanner in the works, because the rose available here under that name has no hints of peach in it. At least, not in my garden. Has anyone ever seen it looking peachy?
Reply #12 of 17 posted 1 SEP 17 by Patricia Routley
Check out Margaret Furness' photo (added by Gregg Lowery)
Reply #13 of 17 posted 1 SEP 17 by Margaret Furness
And Billy's recent photos from Renmark, of plants probably now demolished.
Reply #15 of 17 posted 1 SEP 17 by Give me caffeine
I suppose a couple of those might be related to peachy, as second cousins or something.

Nice bush. Pity if it got demolished.
Reply #14 of 17 posted 1 SEP 17 by Give me caffeine
Wouldn't really call that peachy.
Reply #16 of 17 posted 1 SEP 17 by Margaret Furness
Depends on the peach?
I'd say orange-pink, as on the description page, rather than pink.
Reply #17 of 17 posted 21 SEP by Rex Thomson
Definitely peachy/pink in my garden with the early blooms more peach! Most unlikely to be Lippiat's 'Fairy Gem'. Lippiat was not one to give away a potential star, and while he listed 'Fairy Gem' in an early catalogue, it had disappeared from his 1917 catalogue. The spelling could be Thibault, Thibaut, Thibaud or Thibauld, as these all have similar pronunciations, and since Graham Thomas only knew of the name through oral records, any of these spellings could be correct. It is most likely to be a surname. The name should be 'Mme Jules Thibaud' rather than 'Madame Jules Thibaud', I think.
most recent 9 SEP SHOW ALL
Initial post 27 AUG by PepperReed
Anyone have Westerlund in Zone 5-ish (I'm in mid-MI on a sunny open hilltop with fast draining loam)? I want to plant her on the other side of our entrance gate across from Zepherine and wondered how tall she would get here and if there are any cautionary tales about her thorny-ness! I'd like to both 'match' and contrast with ZD, and Westy looks like a nice pink color match with the extra peachy yellow contrast and petal differential. Thoughts from any Westerlund owners? I'm also considering Portlandia for this purpose. Thanks!
Reply #1 of 1 posted 9 SEP by Andrew from Dolton
'Westerland' is moderately armed with largish thorns. In my garden it makes a large bush but I think it would make climber if I grew it with the protection of a warm wall. What you plant next to each other is your personal choice but IMO orange coloured 'Westerland' and vivid pink of 'Zephirine Drouhin' might clash, but they both have wonderful smells.
most recent 3 JUL HIDE POSTS
Initial post 1 JUL by Patricia Routley
Responding further to member GHS69 and Margaret Furness.

Thanks Margaret. I am not so sure about burnout, but after a bout of influenza for both of us, I knew I had to take more rest. It has actually been wonderful and I have read, rested, got out into my garden, thoroughly overhauled the garage shelving, thrown out enormous amounts of junk in the garage, bought new lamps, and looked at re-curtaining the whole house. After 5-ish hours a day consistently from 2006 to 2021 on HelpMeFind, this return to a normal retirement at the age of 80 has been most welcome. I know my husband Rob, at 92, also is appreciative.
I am feeling most guilty that there are areas that I could still help on this site. However the eyesight is not as good these days, and I cannot cope with the numerous glitches and very slow speeds on a satellite internet service. It is time for me to stop.
It has been exhilerating, and a fascinating journey with HelpMeFind and I am deeply grateful to the website owners who allowed me to contribute to the history of the Australian rose scene on this incredible website. Sharing rose research is in this way has been rewarding and I do recommend it to others. My fond regards to all the rosarians I have met on HelpMeFind.
Reply #1 of 8 posted 1 JUL by Kathy Strong's Del Cerro Garden
Thank you Patricia. Your work, now and over the years, is much appreciated.
Reply #2 of 8 posted 1 JUL by Marlorena
Patricia, very best wishes to you and your husband. You will be greatly missed..
Reply #3 of 8 posted 1 JUL by jedmar
Patricia, you have been warning, but I cannot believe it! We worked so well together. It has been a great journey. Please look in from time to time!
Reply #4 of 8 posted 1 JUL by Andrew from Dolton
You are a true rosarian.
Reply #5 of 8 posted 1 JUL by Give me caffeine
Just saw this. Best wishes for your "normal" retirement, Patricia. It's been a pleasure to get to know you. And thank you for all your work over the years. You've been a great asset to this site.
Reply #6 of 8 posted 2 JUL by Patricia Routley
Thank you Kathy, Marlorena, Andrew and Give Me Caffeine. Your kind words are much appreciated.
And dear Jedmar - of course I will be looking in. The love of roses and their history does not suddenly dissipate. My maiden surname actually included the word ‘rose’, so it is ingrained.
Reply #7 of 8 posted 2 JUL by HubertG
Patricia, I don't know what to say. I hope you might be able to find some sort of happy middle ground with contributing lesser hours. However if this is really what you want, I wish you all the best and sincerely thank you for your truly immense contribution to HMF.
Reply #8 of 8 posted 3 JUL by billy teabag
Thank you Patricia. Such a contribution. Thank you.
most recent 1 JUL SHOW ALL
Initial post 27 SEP 17 by Andrew from Dolton
So, is this rose 'Jacques Cartier' or 'Marchesa Boccella'?
Reply #1 of 3 posted 12 MAR by pvaz
That's what I've been asking myself... I wish I could tell them apart too.

I have four plants labeled as Jacques Cartier/ Marchesa Bocella (interchangeably) from two different nurseries. The one from nursery #1 only blooms once a year. The other three from nursery #2, were in constant bloom last summer.

They look exactly the same: same growth pattern, leaf shape and color, bloom size, fragrance and appearance. But they behave differently... I wonder if one is Marchesa Boccela and the other is Jacques Cartier?
Reply #2 of 3 posted 29 JUN by myd
The roses you got from nursery #2 that are blooming constantly- I would love to know which nursery you got them from.

I have read that this rose does well in my area (Maryland) and that it blooms constantly here. I would like to buy it, but I am hesitant because I have read that some versions of this bush are only blooming once. I think if I knew someone had bought it at a certain place and it was a repeat bloomer, I would feel confidant that the rose I buy from the same place would also be a repeat bloomer.

Also - If anyone else out there is growing this rose near Maryland 7a I'd love to hear your experience with this rose.
Reply #3 of 3 posted 1 JUL by Nastarana
I bought a Marchesa Bocella from Connie Hilkins when her nursery was still open. What I have does repeat but not continuously. It is a lighter pink than that shown in the picture. I don't recall quite such extravagant sepals; I will have to check for that when the next bloom cycle occurs.
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