HELPMEFIND PLANTS COMMERCIAL NON-COMMERCIAL RESOURCES EVENTS PEOPLE RATINGS
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This rose appears to be identical to what is sold as 'Madame Antoine Mari' in the United States.
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#1 of 3 posted
12 MAR 22 by
 kai-eric
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perhaps not as mme antoine mari is showing a more clean appearance. it seems there being two roses around under the name of 'mme camille', one displaying the often described muddy mushroom hue on a primarily creamy ground, another being highly salmon coloured in the manner of 'princesse étienne de croÿ/ketten frères 1898'. maybe there has occured a mixup in the past.
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Kai-Eric, I have then right next to each other... My copy of Mme Camille is always more pink than Mme A Mari, and lacks the "white"... Havent seen the the mushroom color yet... I will have a closer look this Summer
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#3 of 3 posted
20 MAR 22 by
kai-eric
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blossoms of mme.camille can have a "dirty" look when rosy shades are flushing the creamy ground creating a pasty skin color effect.
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I have been very impressed with this rose. It really handles cold temperatures like a champ, and does well in drought and in boggy conditions. It holds onto its leaves unlike a lot of prima donnas, and it keeps its flowers for a very long time as well. The flowers start out basically off white but take on a very faint lavender silver color as the flower ages and become a very attractive HT pointed shape. The flowers have to be removed because they will remain even as the hip is forming. Such a neat combination of qualities. Great fragrance. This and its cousin, Blue Skies are going to become the basis of a great new generation of lavenders. Neither one has a color that can be compared to, say, "Blue Girl", but they are stronger plants. It's almost like having a faintly lavender version of "Carefree Beauty".
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Exquisite as it is opening but rather disappointing when fully open as in the pictures from Beth's Northern CA Rose Garden and Robert Neil Rippetoe, rather like 'Margaret Merril' the stamens spoil the flower. Maybe could make some nice crosses with 'Aschermittwoch' or 'Grey Pearl'.
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Grey pearl is not something I would mix back into modern roses anymore. I am certain that Distant Drums and the great many number of russet/lavender roses that exist now would achieve the same results in color but with seedlings much more healthy and worth the time. If you want to use grey pearl for a very specific reason, I think you should use Intermezzo or Lavender Pinnochio, which are both just a generation away from it.
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I grew Silver Shadows years ago in the mid SoCal desert. It is DEFINITELY a better rose for a cooler climate than one which regularly experiences triple digit heat. The flowers and foliage are too soft for such extremes. As for modifying its coloring, please look more closely at newer, healthier mauves such as Blue for You, Poseidon or something like them than going backwards to museum pieces such as Lavender Pinocchio or mauves from the fifties, sixties, seventies, etc. Each decade, the bar is raised dramatically. You may pick up some coloring you desire from these older types, but you are going to lose much more in health, vigor, architecture, etc.
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Thanks. You are right. Modern really is the way to go, but I love wild forms of plants.
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I don't blame you and I also love "museum pieces", or I wouldn't also grow Lilac Charm, virus indexed Sterling Silver and Grey Pearl, but NOT for breeding "improved" roses.
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Lol. You're going to smack me with a glove and challenge me to a duel for asking this,
But...
What about directly crossing fedt with a pepper scented china with eglanteria with primula?
Like (fedt x china) x ((primula x eglanteria) x china) ?
I mean, if the end result is a whole new class of shrub roses that are valued for foliage fragrance, that would make them pretty modern by definition.
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Not at all. First, I would select the healthier, more vigorous types of the China for where you are and make the Fed X China cross both ways to see which (if either) works. They may not. For years, I put Fed. on everything that moved and vice versa. The ONLY thing that produced any seeds with it was Orangeade. Orangeade is a rabbit on fertility drugs! I theorized that if it crossed with Orangeade, it should them cross with Dottie Louise (Orangeade X Basye's Legacy) to bring in the other species genes. It did. You will find them here as the DLFED crosses. Whatever crosses you desire using, make the reciprocal crosses, too. Many won't work in one direction, but may going the other way. Don't be disappointed when the foliage scent is severely diluted, or even lost, pretty early on. That's usually what happens.
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Hmm....where can I get dlfed or oedfed? Does anyone grow these?
That midnight blue x fed looked fantastic, as did the IHTXLB X FED. I have IHT. I also have Lilac Charm and Lila Banks. I love the general theme of crossing anemic or even excellent roses back to a species to attempt to reinvigorate it. I just got bracteata. I am going to make some really voracious stuff with it.
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I only grow the repeat flowering Oadefed now. I left the DLFED crosses behind due to their "enthusiastic" suckering habits and the reduced room in the new yard. There are a few gardens growing some of them, but the one I feel is the most potentially useful is DLFED 3 as it's the mossy one with the largest, most double flowers. DLFED 4 repeats well and resembles Gloire des Rosomanes in several ways. I also have DLFED 5 X Tom Thumb which repeats in my climate. I'm raising some selfs of it in hopes of obtaining a more dwarf habit. One you may also find intriguing is the Golden Angel X R. Soulieana from Mr. Moore.
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Both Buck mauves were junk here in Oregon, as well. Black spot, weak stems, and not all that large blooms at all. Neither stayed long with me. In fact, Neptune is superior in every way, except maybe hardiness and own-rooting(I didn't have a snap winter when I had the two).
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I have probably shared the story with you previously. If so, please forgive the repetition. I bought Blue Skies (BUCblu) the year before its official introduction. MUCH hype was made about Buck's "Blue Rose", touting it as "Ageratum Blue". I HAD to grow it. I loved the breeding and anything "blue" was on my radar. A group of Texas rose producers offered it budded for $25, PLUS shipping. Remember, that was nearly forty years ago and $25 for a bare root rose was HUGE. I received it and it was the single WORST plant I have ever endured. It had severe RMV, seldom producing a leaf without symptoms. It contracted rust, black spot AND mildew all together. The flowers had no shape and were frequently deformed and never lasted very long. Talk about disappointment. I gave it two years then dug it, chopped it in many pieces and sent it off to the landfill. It's still the most expensive bare root I have bought and that includes paying the equivalent of $15 - $18 each for the Harkness Hulthemias imported from Harkness when you could buy the J&P "Rose of the Year" Grade 1 for $5. Never again.
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#12 of 15 posted
4 MAR 22 by
styrax
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The mauve roses have really improved in the past 3 decades! Don't know if we are any closer to blue, but I was very impressed by Arctic Ice on the East Coast: while it takes colder weather to get the lavender colors, it is a sturdy bush.
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All color types have improved over the decades! As far as perfect health out here, NOTHING surpasses Blue for You. (Well, Eyes for You is AS rudely healthy out here.)
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Yeah, I remember. Its hard to complain when he gave us so many gifts, but, yeah, his mauves were stinkers lmao. So... bad.
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I grow it in my garden here in Stuttgart, Germany. i budded it myself with wood from a friend four years ago. It is always on the brink of death, but I like the color of the blooms...
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Would someone who has access to this rose please check for hips and seeds. It has descendants listed but my plant hasn't set hips.
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#1 of 5 posted
16 JAN 22 by
odinthor
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Never a hip on my healthy, strong-growing, about five-year-old specimen.
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Thank you: none on mine either. I'm wondering about the accuracy of the ID of the rose known worldwide as Souv de Pierre Notting, given that it has four first-generation descendants listed, as seed parent. I don't know if any of the plants in California or Europe have known provenance / a history of the name. Or whether fertility or lack of it can be used as an identifier.
The plants known by this name in Aus are foundlings, identified by the features that match those of overseas plants. It's a survivor, turning up in old gardens in southern mainland states of Australia.
Currently working on a booklet on mystery Teas in Australia, including a few with probable IDs. I have similar concerns about the ID of the rose labelled Mme de Watteville in the Carla Fineschi garden and Sangerhausen. Unfortunately the nursery in Italy which lists Cl Mme de Watteville appears to have gone off air.
Likewise, I'd like to know whether any hips on the rose known as Elie Beauvilain contain seeds.
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I grow EB here in Germany (I budded it myself from wood obtained by a friend in Northern Germany). I will check next season, whether she develops hips...
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Fertility or lack of it is something that can't be ignored when considering whether a foundling is correctly identified.
In the case of Souvenir de Pierre Notting, there is information from the breeder that suggests it would be very difficult to pollinate.
The July 1899 Journal des Roses reference recently added to HMF - authored by Soupert and Notting before the rose was released - refers to a rose with blooms that last a long time - an unusually long time for a Tea. It describes the way the outer petals dry off while the bloom keeps renewing itself from the centre:
"the outer petals do not fall off, they dry up, the center petals grow and renew the flower like this until all the petals have reached their greatest development, then the flower immediately falls off entirely.
Sometimes there are no pistils or stamens in the center, but tiny petals which develop slowly and are thus the cause of the long duration of the flowers."
I have searched plants for hips or unusual blooms with fewer petals and visible reproductive bits and have not found any to date but given that account, which is a very accurate description of the rose we grow under that name, it seems that any natural pollination would be very difficult and naturally occurring hips unlikely.
Perhaps a determined breeder might have assisted - the longevity of the bloom alone would have been a sought-after quality.
All four roses that have Souvenir de Pierre Notting listed as seed parent come with a stated pollen parent, so presumably deliberate crosses/ assisted reproduction.
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It's odd that this rose is only listed as being in one garden in Australia, when it is suppposedly one of the best Teas. No reference from the Tea Rose book either.
Ross Roses list it as 'In Collection', so presumably at least one stock plant still survives at T4R. I'm thinking a few of us should try to get it propogated. I'd be up for one or two.
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In the Renmark list there is a note ";possibly incorrect". It was one of only two roses from there that I dug up and put into a pot, as it was going backwards very fast. It is recovering but I haven't let a flower mature yet, and it's not big enough for cuttings.
The pedicel isn't prickly, unlike those of Mrs Foley-Hobbs (Patricia's photos), which has a similar flower.
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For the record, I grow:
173 ?Mme. Bravy. Provenance Ruth Jones came in 2001 as ‘Mme. Bravy’-> Plot-N-nw-17
543 “Not Comtesse Riza du Parc” Provenance N. Drage-> M. Dixon came in 1999 as ‘Comtesse Riza du Parc’ -> GS-O-NE-nw.
At this stage I have no photos of the rose no. 173, but I suspect it is the same as no. 543
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Mme Bravy is (in my opinion) fairly characteristic/distinct: it has most of the time three/four blooms adjacent to each other on a singlen stem and a very weak neck... In my climate she doesnt grow beyond my knee. The color is the purest white on the outer petals and the color change to the center of the bloom is very subtle...
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Mme Bravy is in the Tea book, pp 124-5. The suggestion that it might be incorrect applies to all in commerce, not just what we had at Renmark.
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