HELPMEFIND PLANTS COMMERCIAL NON-COMMERCIAL RESOURCES EVENTS PEOPLE RATINGS
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Organic Roses-Honeybee Garden
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I have the same problems echoed by others: Jacques Cartier's scent is light, not strong - nothing spectacular to be worth the space it occupies. The bloom is really small in partial shade, the leaves are weedy. I have a hard time liking this rose. Its prickles get bigger as it grows bigger. The shape if gangly, and it blooms low on the bush, rather than at the tip. It's healthy in my alkaline soil, but the scent is VERY disappointing.
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Ohhhh, I experience the complete opposite. Even as a tiny baby plant the scent of Marchesa Boccella is absolutely divine! The fragrance is very damask/honeysuckle combo. My soil is rock hard clay, full of rocks and very poor nutrients, very little earthworms in the untilled area. I do scatter coffee grinds and feed with Gardenville though. Also, baby roses can throw one off. I had a 100% genuine Climbing Etoile de Hollande that was supposed to be deeply fragrant (EdH being famous for intense fragrance), but 2 out of its 3 first blooms were of little or no! scent. It was not until the 3rd bloom that something started to activate so that I could tell in subsequent time it would eventually gain its reputed fragrance. Temps, time of planting, soils, I'm thinking all these have possible factors???? EdH and Marchesa did a 180 swap; huge flowers - no fragrance; teeny-weeny flowers - powerhouse fragrance. Go figure, lol!
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Thank you Organic Roses! You spare me Jacques Cartier's life. I was about to kill that ragged weedy thing. You are right that the first bloom doesn't smell good. My first "Heirloom" bloom had no smell, but the second one smelled like yummy spicy floral sweet (I Love it). Jacques is in very poor soil and neglected (I was hoping he would die). I'll give him a second chance.
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Hi, and Rosie Smiles! I also had to re-read more carefully-- you are in partial shade, but if you have too much shade most! roses get gangly, so you may want to thin out your plants surrounding it. My baby Marchesa Boccella is very graceful, it drapes very elegantly and is full of lovely leaves even in the heat (but I make sure it's well watered), whereas my friend has a gorgeous established Marchesa B., which is a very pretty rounded bush shape instead of my draping baby version. She is too shy to be on HMF, but her roses are BEAUTIFUL, especially her Marchesa Boccella! It is because of her that I got mine. She does say it is one of the most fragrant in her garden, and I would say the same thing too about my baby M.B. I also forgot the rose gardener I met at Costco with his 150 roses. He too says M.B.is outstanding in fragrance. I think organic fertilizers like Gardenville can make a huge difference. But be very, very careful. In the Midwest the heat is a total killer!!! So everything has to be watered down to about 1/10th strength, no matter what fertilizer you choose, or else the roots will burn and you'll end up with a dead-as-a-doornail plant. ! never had a plant keel over from coffee grinds, though, and the earthworms love it :D. You might try transplanting a few earthworms into that bad soil region and put them with banana peels to feed off of.
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Thank you, Organic Roses - much appreciated. I moved Jacques Cartier to more sun 2 months ago, and I will dig up some worms to put in that spot. My soil is tested by Earthco. to be deficient in potassium, necessary for blooms and stem strength. I can't put banana peels there since it's a hilly spot, and the strong wind here blows the peels on my lawn. You are right about chemical fertilizer burns roses in the heat, I only use alfalfa meal in the summer. Here's the link to salt index of chemical fertilizers: http://bulletin.ipm.illinois.edu/article.php?id=1305
Thank you for any info. on roses that give abundant cut flowers.
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Hi! I will be corresponding by PM on details, lol! :D
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Straw, how did this rose turn out for you? I've had it recommended for my hot area but scent is most important. Thanks!
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When I had JC as own-root, I didn't realize that Old Garden Rose need acidic rain water to bloom. It was stingy with my alkaline tap water (pH 9), and also stingy to a friend in CA with alkaline tap. It did bloom for me in a loamy potting soil with acidic rain, one tiny bloom & nice scent, but MUCH STINGIER than Comte de Chambord, which has a larger bloom and blooms easily.
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Thanks for the information! CdC was actually my first choice today but ARE said that it just doesn't do well in our heat and that's why they don't carry it. They did recommend JC but that's good to know about the water.
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They are right, JC does best in full-sun, while Comte de Chambord takes partial shade well. Lots of people love Comte de Chambord, but lots of complaints about JC, either the scent is average, stingy, or blooms are small. Comte is cute, but JC is huge.
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Thanks for your input, appreciate it!
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Hi, my good friend in Europe is breeding the shrub Westerland and this is how I noticed an accidental mislabeling of the Climbing Westerland. In the U.S. Westerland is a very! popular Climber and it does climb on trellises and archways. Had another friend who used to post photos of his on trellises on an American forum. The description label has to be switched over to "climber" for this specific area . It still reads as "shrub". And maybe comments need to be separated out so that shrub comments remain with the shrub version and the climber remains with the climber version! Or if Lyn can make final clarifications so that people don't mix the 2 together. As a web designer, I know this may be a bit of a bear (American slang for major headache) to correct, but hopefully someone on the administrative side can sort this out. Description still reads as shrub for HMF's "Climbing Westerland" so I think that's why we might have all the mixup? But then I'm not positive either. I'm just thinking that U.S. breeders specifically bred for the climbing version because it makes such a great climber here in our locale and our climate and / or sunlight conditions.
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There is no confusion between the shrub and climbing form. Depending upon climate, many roses will either grow as shrubs, or explode into climbing growth depending upon the heat, light, length of season and other resources. Many English roses as well as Sally Holmes do exactly the same thing in longer season climates. Even though you will sometimes find nurseries and articles listing "Cl. Westerland", "Cl. Sally Holmes", they are the same, exact roses. They are simply being described by how they have performed for those describing them. Take a look at the David Austin Catalog. He will list the same rose as being able to be grown as a shrub as well as grown as a climber. But, they are still the same, exact roses.
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Oh, cool! Thanks for explaining, Kim!
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haha, I also take things very literal! You should see my NYC Botanical Garden photo comment here, lol, lol! I got confused when someone had moved a label and I could not! for the life of me figure out what rose it was. (smack the forehead) I was doing a whooooa this name does not look like this rose and Palustris had to say break down for me in simpler terms for this simpleton on what had happened to this rose bwaha....
http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=21.230078&tab=32
Still curious as to what this rose is. Color reminds me of my friend's seedling but petal shape is completely different.... hmmmmm
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From the photo, it appears to be some sort of rambler. It could be visually misleading and actually be a smaller, dwarf plant. It's hard to tell from the image. If the garden has a list of the roses they grow, check their ramblers listed as growing there. I think you may find the identity there.
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Definitely camera angle distortion. Plant is under 4' like your 2nd guess (smaller dwarf) because the grey in the background is actually gravel. Plant is also in center aisle which makes things even more hard to guess, because climbers and ramblers are positioned against the outer walls. I tried looking under all the Kordes since it's one of the most popular breeds for NYCBG it seems. But as you can tell no luck with that. Nothing yet seems to match. The way it's clustered I would normally guess floribunda and flowers look too modern to be a hybrid musk and hybrid musks tend to be massive plants (instead of dwarf-y like this one). But then quite a few hybrid musks have very elliptical leaves and this rose has elliptical leaves. And the leaves seem very small and delicate. Leaves should give a good hint since it's atypical, but I'm somewhat of an idiot when it comes to breed knowledge, lol! So my guess is getting further and further "off" I'm sure! OK it's super late here so will have to sleep, haha! or else I will make lots of mistakes and make my clients mad :P Need to leave the detective work to you (the wise experts) haha!
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Is it possible the rose is something of the polyantha class? Britiannia, for one, can resemble this type and coloring of flower depending upon conditions. You might look at single, reddish polys to find an identity.
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Whoo-hoo, on the Sherlock Holmes perfect mystery solution!!!! Thanks, Kim!! it is a polyantha for sure! Had to Google since I don't get to see these types of roses where I live! but photo after photo shows this exact same leaf shape and bloom clustering!!!! And there are several smaller height polyanthas shown via Google versus larger polyanthas. So excited - am narrowing down to a few magenta ones!!!
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#7 of 19 posted
15 OCT 13 by
 Jay-Jay
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Hi organic R&B garden.
I planted Westerland to be a climber, but it behaved at the same time like a free standing shrub too!
...So people got grabbed by the vicious hooked prickles, when they got out of their car on our driveway, so I removed it to another spot. See my pictures of the same rose. Before and after planting.
Over here, I would recommend it as a free standing shrub.
On the other hand, the Rosarium of Winschoten grows Lichtkönigin Lucia (shares ancestry with Westerland) as a shrub (see my photo's of that in 2009) ...But at our place it's a very satisfying good climber.(see my photo's too). It doesn't spread and arch that much from its base as the Westerland does.
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Hi, Jay-Jay! Ha ha on the thorny grab! Kim mentioned the situation that Westerland is the exact same breed of roses but perform differently depending on locale.And I know in Europe the sun rays are less direct compared to the blasting rays of U.S. MIdwest and the majority of California. But! In general Westerland in U.S. is a climber and does not have the same issue as my Climbing America which seems destined to remain a spreading "shrub" because it cannot handle high BS, my lazy *ss neglect, and! our pendulum swinging winters. A gardener warned me that my Climbing America will forever remain a pathetic shrub and will not perform well. But hard-headed me loved it so much that I have two, lol! Poor roses!!! But who knows, I believe sometimes certain climbers are turtles in starting out slow then gathering momentum. Compassion took 4 years before it started to begin its climber status.... Not every climber is an immediate monster like Viking Queen. But! that being said I also have Climbing Etoile de Hollande, which is listed as a regular shrub too. Haha, the annoying "pest" me (who happens to grow E de H) will be curious as to whether "shrub" Etoile de Hollande is indeed the "same" plant as the "climbing" Etoile de Hollande". If so, this will be another thing I am learning, lol! I used to always think that both shrub and climber were bred out to favor one characteristic (the climber gene) versus the original shrub gene. Also Jay-Jay, I looove your Westie! Hmmm, once it settles with the transplant, maybe??? it will eventually transform to its climber status. It certainly seems vigorous and happy enough to. I would love to see it in 3 additional years and compare....
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#11 of 19 posted
15 OCT 13 by
Jay-Jay
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There is a distinct Étoile de Hollande AND a distinct sport of it: Étoile de Hollande Climbing!
I grow both and one is the climbing rose and one is the normal sized HT, that stays short.
So this is different from what Kim told You about roses acting both as a shrub and as a climber. Like some of the Austins do too. (when trained as a climber)
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Lol, another (smack on the forehead) I should have remembered to look at the BREEDER!!!! this is the definite indicator! AAAARGH haha! Reading the plant's original breeder is the clue.
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#13 of 19 posted
15 OCT 13 by
Jay-Jay
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No a smack on the back of Your head ; )
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Lol, same thing (backwards and forwards) Jay-Jay! and BTW I need to stop writing on HMF during the day, eeeee! I forgot how addicting Rose talk is after being away for a year! May I blame my stupid "forehead" on not getting my real-life deadlines finished???? Must end thread before more stupidity revealed hahaha!
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If you want an explosive, easy climber, then try Sympathie or Salita. If you want a climber that is easy, moderate, and upright, then try Scent from Above. It makes a low-thorn-count pillar, that blooms all summer long.
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That's very climate dependent, Michael. I planted Scent from Above three years ago. it is rather prickly, with very large, sharp thorns and flowers only the ends of 8' - 10' canes. I guess your colder, wetter, shorter season "keeps the lid" on it.
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Really? Odd. Its been the same way since I ever planted it. I dont even water it, lol.
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You get rain. We honestly haven't had enough in three years to keep anything alive. You get something called "winter". Here, the deciduous trees don't lose their leaves and plants requiring "winter chill" refuse to flower. I had temps around Christmas in the eighties. If I don't water at least twice a week, things DIE. Literally. Even with that, nothing looks good and little is flowering.
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Come move here, lol :] Im just kidding, though. Most Cali's tend to sulk in the winter here. Its a rough transition for only being a state away.
You should try Rosa glutinosa. It seems to thrive better with neglect than with care. Its quite dwarf.
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Every year I write J&P begging and pleading for them to please re-introduce the Gemini Tree Rose, but to no avail so far! It breaks my heart- Gemini was such a fantastic standard. A bloom machine, mine was a sport-fragranced Gemini- adored the fruity, delicious scent, gorgeous spiraling blooms, perfect for a tree shape, glossy deep green foliage, everything I love...If I can get enough HMF members to petition for Gemini tree roses, that'd be a dream, lol!
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#1 of 15 posted
14 APR 12 by
Jay-Jay
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If You buy a Gemini, You might make/bud a tree-rose of Your own!
In the past days, someone gave some info on HMF about a rose suitable for making tree-roses.....
I use Rosa Canina "Pfänder's".
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Oh, my goodness! I am sooo impressed Jay-Jay! that is GORGEOUS!!!! How on earth did you do this! I am curious in a supposedly cold zone can one still create a budded standard? We used to be zone 5, but over the years, our zone temps are skyrocketing. This year it was like zone 8. I definitely do not have a greenhouse and never will have one. And how long before a Rosa Canina can produce a long enough "trunk" to produce a standard.... I am totally impressed with your creation!!!!!!
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#5 of 15 posted
15 APR 12 by
Jay-Jay
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Thank You for Your kind compliments.
These standard rootstocks of Rosa canina "Pfänder" are grown relatively nearby (The Nethelands is small) and I can order them from a rootstock grower. I don't know if they export to the United States. Look under nurseries in the left column and type in Kloosterhuis.
(or go to: http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=17.22153 )
In the first stage they grow them in the surroundings of Winschoten (where the beautifull Rosarium is situated) from cuttings and then send them to a region with a very rich soil, to grow/gain height and diameter of the stem. It's a process (when I remember well) of three years. Than they are sold, planted in spring and budded in june/july/august.
In the next two replies films from nursery Stange (also mentioned at HMF)
Have fun! Kind Regards, Jay-Jay.
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#6 of 15 posted
15 APR 12 by
Jay-Jay
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This is the first video I meant: http://www.gartenfernsehen.de/filme/rosen-veredeln-teil-1
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#7 of 15 posted
15 APR 12 by
Jay-Jay
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This is the second video I meant: http://www.gartenfernsehen.de/filme/rosen-veredeln-teil-2
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Thank you so much Jay. The how-to-photos and the videos are brilliant! Even though I cannot understand German I can tell the depth of knowledge and detail the videos are trying to show. I do not know if any! US videos exist that are so specialized and detailed. I am lucky in that I am one of the most regular posters at the Peter Beales forum and have several friends who are from the Netherlands. Maybe they can help me translate! Three years, lol! I can't lose because I've been regularly pestering J&P nurseries for Gemini Standard/tree rose year-after-year-after-year.... It's so odd that J&P will not re-introduce the successful standards. Instead they keep changing their inventory instead of keeping the "winners" - every year the Hybrid Tea standards are different whereas the terrible KO (Knock Out) standards are always kept - it's a bit maddening. Thank you so much for your expert help and for your wonderful video link references. As you can tell everyone is completely overwhelmed at how gorgeous and beautiful your Standard is. Even an expert can may have the skills to create a standard, but not all standards have that gorgeous health, beauty and balance going....
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#9 of 15 posted
15 APR 12 by
Jay-Jay
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You make me blush with such praise! It's still a hobby for me and it will stay that way. But there are professionals enough to help You!
If You wish, I can send you detailed photographs of how to bud in steps, when you send me Your e-mail address in a PM.
Regards, Jay-Jay.
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Hi, Jay-Jay! I would love to get your photos.... I also have a PM to send you because I'd like to post your very informative links and knowledge at Peter Beales. I absolutely love this forum, and I'm sure everyone would be so impressed!!! Actually I'm sure you'd be flooded with even more HMF compliments about your Standard, but our HMF correspondence is limited to only those who just happen upon this isolated Gemini discussion, lol! A bit sad, they are losing out on this wonderful sight. It's amazing that this young standard is just a year old after budding and is doing so magnificently :D Standards are very difficult especially in my zone. You can get tons of canker and scarring with standards because the bud union also cannot expand or increase in size from what a PB nursery person explained, and once the bud union has been damaged by climate stresses you cannot do much about it. But I really loved the Gemini Standard! It was so beautiful!!! P.S. I just went to your profile to PM, and had to re-edit my message- I am impressed beyond words - how on earth! to have your gorgeous organic garden! Wow, wow, and triple wow!
I saw these wonderful snapshots.....
http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=3.22012.0&tab=36
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#11 of 15 posted
16 APR 12 by
Jay-Jay
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I didn't recieve the PM, so something must have gone wrong.
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Jay-Jay, I got delayed....had a few things come up so I finished my PM at 3:20 a.m., lol! I have to freelance so there's a lot of "burning of the midnight oil".....Will talk soon! and looking forward to hearing from you.... In England there is a 6 hour difference from the U.S. so my guess it's "normal" morning hours for you in the Netherlands :D
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No, not limited to those who chance upon the Gemini discussion, till later. I think many people check the Q & A Forum > Recent Posts, and also New/Recent > Photos. Which is a bit startling the first time you realise your comments are open to all.
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Beautiful, Jay-Jay. I wish I had your skills.
Smiles,
Lyn
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#14 of 15 posted
27 JAN 14 by
Robert D.
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Your picture is NOT any Gemini that I've ever seen. What is it?
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Hi, Robert! this is actually is my good friend Jay-Jay's Ghislaine de Féligonde grafted unto a standard. He was trying to demo for me how to bud a standard Gemini unto a rootstock "Pfänder" to try to replicate my original Gemini tree standard (http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.195505) since J&P still doesn't carry this tree rose any longer. What he had done was bud his gorgeous Ghislaine de Féligonde unto Pfänder to create his "tree rose".... Ghislaine de Féligonde is an old garden rose, instead of the Hybrid Tea of Gemini.
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Strangely I have a very distinct label in this garden for this rose, but HMF's Prosperity Hybrid Musk looks completely different than what NYBG clearly labels as their "Prosperity Hybrid Musk".... I could not find the label for the breeder either for the NYBG label.
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Labels in public gardens frequently get moved around. Sometimes well meaning people will simply place a label next to the nearest plant if they find one lying on the ground. The rose in the photo is not 'Prosperity'.
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That explains it, lol! Label was stuck right at the base of the rose, lol! Hope someone can help ID so that I can fix the description I attached. I will go back and say unknown....
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