HELPMEFIND PLANTS COMMERCIAL NON-COMMERCIAL RESOURCES EVENTS PEOPLE RATINGS
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Prairie Peace is an apricot rose. There's no hint of yellow
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Pétales de roses, the online shop of Chemins de la rose in France, say that their Francis Dubreuil is the real one and not Barcelona.
Here is the link to their Francis Dubreuil page:
http://www.petales-de-roses.com/rosiers-anciens/206-francis-dubreuil.html
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#1 of 9 posted
11 MAY 15 by
MichaelG
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true-blue,
They give the height as 100 cm and the fragrance as "legér" (light), so maybe theirs is not 'Barcelona'.
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Maybe that's the Australian "not" FD!
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#3 of 9 posted
12 MAY 15 by
Tessie
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What is the provenance of the Barcelona at The Huntington? It is said by multiple people to be extremely fragrant. One of them was a staff member (Judy something I think) who makes rose desserts from some varieties with the best fragrance for that purpose, and Huntington's Barcelona was one. But since there are such questions with the identify of Francis Dubreuil, how certain is it that The Huntington has the real Barcelona???? Did they get it from Sangerhausen? Because if so, this from the reference section presents a problem:
"Rosenlexikon
Book (1936) Page(s) 52.
Barcelona (HT) Kordes 1932; (Sensation X Templar) X L. Charlemont; deep crimson, shaded velvety blackish red, very large, double, fine form, cupped, lasting, fragrance 6/10, floriferous, blooms continuosly with interruptions, elongated buds, long stems, upright, growth 7/10, 70cm. Sangerhausen"
Fragrance is only 6/10? What people are growing in the US now as Barcelona is a very, very fragrant rose. So is it really Barcelona? Did Sangerhausen evaluate the correct rose, or not, per above? Or maybe The Huntington got their plant direct from Kordes????
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Tessie - have you had a look at the Notes on the main page?
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Tessies, Kim responded your question on the sprawling Francis Dubreuil thread:
Just scroll to the end :-)
http://www.houzz.com/discussions/1705818#14914820
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#6 of 9 posted
12 MAY 15 by
Tessie
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Yes, I've looked at both the notes and the Houzz thread. No provenance stated. Kim indicates he didn't check the records at the huntington, so he doesn't know the details on this rose. Although he mentioned a number of possible sources, we don't know from which one the Huntington acquired theirs. There are so many plants in commerce incorrectly identified as well as named varieties where there are multiple different roses being sold with the same name. And so much effort seems to be going into tracking down the real Francis Dubreuil, it seems reasonable to do a little verifying on Barcelona too.
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Why don't you contact them directly, they might be able to help you :-)
http://huntington.org/WebAssets/Templates/content.aspx?id=542
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Kim is quite correct in what he says about Francis Dubrueil and Barcelona. Francis has the much STR get scent of the two.It is as he says much like Oklaholma in style except that it is much darker bel g the shade of very dark amaranth and Black mulberry with blackberry overtones. Towards to middle and lower parts of the petals it lightens and becomes crimson scarlet and purple/pink.Even after 100 years it rarely exceeds more than a metre in height being very erect rather than loose and spreading. Barcelona is quite different for instance it is a shiny red with out being velvety like Francis D. IT IS ALSO more cupped once it has expands.
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I would not consider what n’ Chemins de la Rose ’ states, since they write about roses they have just acquired bare root one month earlier..
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Initial post
5 SEP 13 by
Tessie
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I have a rose purchased as Marquesa Boccellla from the Antique Rose Emporium in Texas. It is a very small grower, really like a dwarf (2 1/2 feet afer almost 3 years, and arriving already as a big plant in a 2 gallon container) but very healthy and with plenty of clean foliage. Flowers are very fragrant and flat. The flowers do not fit the description of Jacques Cartier as they are pale pink all over, not darker in the center at all, nor could they be described as "deep pink" (per "Le Rose", 1890 page 149) no matter in which month they've been blooming in my garden. The early descriptions (note HMF references from the 1800s) describe the flowers as globular and the growth as vigorous. According to "The Ultimate Rose Book" (1993, an HMF-listed reference) Jacques Cartier is said to be the offspring of Baronne Prevost, and that rose is very, very tall around here, and with a similar growth habit.
The problem here is that HMF has the 2 roses, Marquesa Boccella and Jacques Cartier, listed as synonyms of one another, as if to say they are the same rose. Certainly there may be roses in commerce mistakenly sold as the other, but how does it help matters to say 2 different roses, bred more than 20 years apart by 2 different breeders (Bred by Jean Desprez (France, 1842). Bred by Robert and Moreau (France, 1868.), are one and the same? Even if many of the roses in commerce as Jacques Cartier are really Marqusa Boccella, what happens if someone has the real Jacques Cartier? Must they list it on HMF as Marquesa Boccella and extend another id problem into the future?
I really have to wonder if they don't have the correct Jacques Cartier in some places in Europe. Whether they do or not, the real Marquesa Boccellas should not be called by the wrong name, especially knowingly. Perhaps HMF could just put a note at the bottom of the Jacques Cartier description page and note that many in commerce *in the US* are incorrectly being sold as Jacques Cartier.
Melissa
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#1 of 14 posted
6 SEP 13 by
 jedmar
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I agree that the current solution is unsatisfactory. The reason seems to have been that ARS has decided that all Jacques Cartier are actually Marchese Boccella. In Europe, this rose is sold mostly as Jacques Cartier. We also have indications that there are different clones in commerce, some more compact, some sturdy-growers.
For historic clarity, the two roses should be separated on HMF. The negative aspect will be that assigning photos, gardens, nurseries to one or the other will be a mess and will indicate a differentiation which is impossible to make without seeing the roses in situ.
Other comments on this subject are very welcome.
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That will likely be the problem here, too, Jedmar. I first became aware of this confusion somewhere around 1984-85. As with many other confused rose identification issues, there were those who were positive theirs was the one, true "real one". However, I've never encountered a rose sold as either name which wasn't the SAME rose. Whether they are actually one or the other, who can ever really know? But, the same rose has always been supplied as both names in commerce here in the US, except when the one supplied has been an obvious mistake, such as the once flowering type distributed as the "continual flowering" plant. Otherwise, what we have in commerce in the US is all the same. I wish someone could discover the "real" version of each, but after all these decades, I seriously doubt it will happen.
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#3 of 14 posted
7 MAR 15 by
flodur
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1. The ARS is not god
2. The rose was bred in France, so the name has to be 'Marquise Boccella', allthough the correct name of the Marquis is Marchese Cesare Boccella.
3. 'Marquise Boccella' and 'Jacques Cartier' are two different roses, you just have to look at them and compare ALL DETAILS!
4. I didn't know. that HMF is now an organisation working for the rose nurseries and no longer dedicated to roses, as it was said on your page in the very beginning.
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HMF is not working for the ARS, rose nurseries or anyone else. It is a database which provides historic, "official" information from published references AND the personal experience of those generous enough to share it. What has been experienced here in the US has been shared. What would be wonderful, should you have the ability and desire to do it, since you appear to have access to what may be the original Marchese, is for you to write an article with accompanying photographs of the details, comparing what should be the original and the impostor for the HMF EZine.
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#5 of 14 posted
7 MAR 15 by
flodur
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If that is the case - and I am happy about it - than you should make two roses out of it: 'Marquise Boccella' with the synonyme 'Marchesa Boccella' and 'Jacques Cartier'. It is not necessary to write an article about it. What grows in some gardens in USA is different from what is growing in some gardens in Germany and that is already documented.
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"HMF is an organization working for rose nurseries" ? And you arrived at this ridiculous and insulting statement based on what exactly?
HMF has been a labor of love for more than a decade with many wonderful people freely giving of their time and energy to help maintain it.
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#9 of 14 posted
8 MAR 15 by
flodur
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Honi soit qui mal y pense!
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It was my understanding, I do not at the moment remember from where, that one of the two had been lost from commerce, and its' name applied to the other.
It would seem that one rose is using both names in North America. If you or someone else in Europe grows or has access to both cultivars, perhaps someone could post pictures of each and give details of provenance?
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L'Haÿ (Val de Marne) lists 4 different varieties of Jacques Cartier and one "MARQUISE BOCCELLA".
If you do a search with Jacques Cartier and then click on images you can see all 4.
I'll add a screen capture.
http://www.roseraieduvaldemarne.fr/roseraie/?page=65
For MB check for MARQUISE BOCCELLA.
Difference between the two according to them:
JC: Bush size medium, strong fragrance, blooms in flushes, very floriferous
MB-Bush size: big, medium fragrance, always in flower,medium floriferousness
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So, I've just planted a 'Jacques Cartier' grown by David Austin, do you think it will actually be this rose or 'Marquesa Boccellla'?
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#12 of 14 posted
16 MAR 17 by
true-blue
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It depends where they sourced it.
And it will take several years in order for you to be able establish, which is which, i.e. assuming that the "descriptions" correspond, and i.e. if the descriptions are accurate :-)
Bottom line, what matters most is that you enjoy the rose, regardless its name.
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Yes that is so very true, they both are beautiful roses and I will post some pictures in a few months when it is in flower. It was grown by David Austin, Austin roses are quite ubiquitous in most garden centres
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#14 of 14 posted
17 DEC 20 by
Duchesse
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I know it's been awhile since your post, but this David Austin question has been on my mind. I see they sell alot of damask looking roses. They are getting a name as David Austin roses. But that company is merely selling some old roses and some of their own new breeding. Jacques Cartier is a very old rose, well before David Austin's time......sheesh.
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I think that's a misinterpretation - the Auston nursery/ies sell old and new roses, but don't claim to have bred the old ones.
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Clematis Listing Omission
Clematis Joe zany
You would might to add Clematis 'Joe Zary' bred by Stanley Zubrowski
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#1 of 1 posted
24 JUN 19 by
jedmar
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Added. Thank you for the heads up!
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