HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
most recent 26 APR SHOW ALL
Initial post 1 JUN 12 by goncmg
For years the topic of "dedteriorated/-ating" cultivars has been discussed. Deterioration through overbudding/poor budding practices, virused plant material, and so on (and I believe it is generally accepted Peace simply HAS deteriorated at this point)....does anyone else find Fragrant Cloud much less robust and healthy now than it was years ago? Having a tough time getting a solid plant. Tried mail order, not robust. Tried the garden center here and the plant is barely making it along. Several years ago I had a really nice, healthy first year plant that ended up with both mosiac and witch's broom (the later is not a virus I realize)....just wondering if anyone else has experienced what might be a deterioration with Fragrant Cloud...
Reply #1 of 11 posted 3 JUN 12 by Jay-Jay
In the Rosarium of Winschoten NL, the bed with Fragrant Cloud looked ugly and de plants almost defoliated by blackspot and just a few of the appr. 50 or more plants stayed more or less alive till winter. They were pruneshoveled and replaced by a better performing variety,
On the photo You can see the roseplants stayed tiny before getting diseased.
Reply #3 of 11 posted 4 JUN 12 by goncmg
Great yet sad picture..........this is exactly what my last few have looked like, very tiny, struggling, never get any basal breaks...........
Reply #5 of 11 posted 4 JUN 12 by Jay-Jay
These were all on rootstocks. And it was the last season of them over there. (The colours aren't right, for my camera has difficulties capturing reds.)
At first, after I looked them up that year, I wanted to plant them in my garden, but when I saw, how they behaved in the Rosarium, I hesitated and decided not to grow them in our garden.
A good choice, considered afterwards.
Reply #7 of 11 posted 11 SEP 15 by StrawChicago Alkaline clay 5a
Saw Fragrant Cloud in a pot for $10 at Menards, lots of blooms but bad-blackspot !! This is a dry week, so the store waters it with alkaline-tap water, pH near 9, which zaps out potassium. Other roses next to it are healthy: Queen Elizabeth, Oklahoma, Chrysler Imperial, etc. Fragrant Cloud was much healthier when we got rain (pH of rain is 5.6).
Reply #2 of 11 posted 3 JUN 12 by Rosaholic's Southern California Garden
Hmm, I have two Fragrant Clouds -- one is a "virus indexed" own root version from Vintage and the other a Home Depot denizen on Dr. Huey. The Home Depot rose is MUCH more vigorous and healthy than the other one.
Reply #4 of 11 posted 4 JUN 12 by goncmg
Going to try to hunt one down if I can at Home Depot or the current sad little one is from a "better" garden center but the whole product looked awful and I bought one (last year) anyway.........this year's stock of FC is mostly dead at this nursery compared to huge and lovely (albeit perhapd doomed as summer ticks on) tiny pots of everyone else................every so often I find that a 1 1/2 grade of 2 grade rose "saved" from its wax and plastic sleeve or a "Home Depot" can really thrive. My current Royal Highness is gorgeous and vigorous and was on the clearance shelf 4 years ago at Wal-Mart. This year I have an Arizona from Meijers (basically a Wal-Mart) and a Mojave from a Menard's (basically a Home Depot) and they are bursting out basals, taking off.............without a doubt the best plant of Arizona I have ever grown............and what a nice surprise to see MOJAVE!
Reply #6 of 11 posted 5 JUN 12 by Seil
My Fragrant Cloud is a very weak grower. It's about 5 years old now and is still only 2 feet tall. I get one flush of a handful of blooms in the spring and maybe one bloom in the fall and that's about it. It seems to winter fine with little die back but it just doesn't want to grow or bloom much.
Reply #9 of 11 posted 26 APR by StrawChicago Alkaline clay 5a
Thanks for the info. I wish more info. like that is available regarding own-root vs. Dr. Huey for particular rose. How's the vase life of Fragrant Cloud?? saw that cheap on Dr.Huey for less than $5, was tempted to buy it.
Reply #10 of 11 posted 26 APR by BenT_TX
I have heard several reports on own-root Fragrant Cloud, and the consensus is that it's much better budded. Vase life is excellent, usually 5+ days for me, with a huge deep clove fragrance that can be smelled from afar. Really one of the most rewarding roses ever, if you can find a good plant.
Reply #11 of 11 posted 26 APR by StrawChicago Alkaline clay 5a
Thank you, BenT_TX.
Reply #8 of 11 posted 26 APR by BenT_TX
I agree most of the Fragrant Cloud out there is bad stock. I have tried it on multiflora (mail order from a reputable place), Dr Huey (big box store) and they have both produced puny disease ridden plant. I spray faithfully every week, and even blackspot magnets like Angel Face, Stainless Steel and Melody Parfumee are spotless, yet FC just sits idle and drops its leaves , like some incredible shrinking rose. I remember growing it many years ago when it was just about the most rewarding thing in my garden...bushy, floriferous, heat resistant, always pumping out new bronze foliage and clusters of big fragrant bloms. I recently bought one on Fortuniana, so far it's been rather sickly too, but it's only been 2 months so I'll give it more time.

Does anyone know a good source for this rose that was purchased recently? I'm determined to get a good plant of it since it one of my very favorites. I think I'll try Palatine this fall. I ordered some bareroot bushes from them for the 1st time this year, and they were the best I ever purchased, massive succulent root systems, plants that have grown lustily regardless of variety.
most recent 8 APR SHOW ALL
Initial post 7 FEB 12 by DonaldQuRoses
I refuse to buy a rose named Ketchup and Mustard! Please please please - roses are elegant and should be named that way. It looks like a beautiful rose, but with that name all I can see is a hot dog --- and I'm a VEGETARIAN! ;)
Reply #1 of 26 posted 7 FEB 12 by Rupert, Kim L.
But, might not those condiments also be appropriate for a veggie burger? As for "elegance" in rose names, you're forgetting ones such as "Happy Butt" , "Sweet Revenge" and "Crazy Dottie". Nothing "elegant" about those and there are many, many more.
Reply #2 of 26 posted 7 FEB 12 by DonaldQuRoses
Many many wrongs don't make a right! ;)
Reply #3 of 26 posted 7 FEB 12 by Rupert, Kim L.
"Tofu" included! LOL!
Reply #4 of 26 posted 8 FEB 12 by Aurelija
That's what happens, when the rose naming is done before the lunch. :)

I am with DonaldQuRoses on this one though, it is a very no-awe inspiring rose name.
Reply #5 of 26 posted 8 FEB 12 by Jay-Jay
Piccalilly....oh I'm sorry.... Piccadilly is in the parentage too!
(and Peace off course!)
Reply #6 of 26 posted 9 FEB 12 by Seil
I don't let the names bother me too much any more. If the rose is lovely I don't really care what the breeder decided to name it. There are too many really gorgeous roses that are named after politicians and so called "stars" that, except for their names, I want. So I just buy what I like and to heck with the names. Unless you exhibit and need to have the correct "Approved Exhibition Name" (AEN) if you find a rose you really love with a name you hate just buy the rose and pick your own name for it! Whose gonna know or care?
Reply #7 of 26 posted 9 FEB 12 by Rupert, Kim L.
I've honestly bought many over the years simply due to the name. At the "entrance" to my old desert garden, as it bordered a private golf course in a planned community, I planted Buck's "Hi Neighbor" as the greeting to the garden, though I honestly don't like the rose. I planted Hiroshima's Children next to Pearl Harbor. All of the "booze" inspired were planted together in "the bar". Tequilla Sunrise, Champagne Cocktail, Courvoisier and a number of others named for either alcohol or drinks were "tended" there.

I grew many which were named for notable, strong, intelligent women, Marian Anderson,
Madame Chiang Kai-shek and others, held their court together. Though I've never grown it, The Wife of Bath is probably one I should as Bath's Wife was a formidable woman for her time!

The names don't have to be elegant to have meaning. Personally, I think the British have the best idea from a marketing standpoint. Name them for special occasions, making them the perfect gift for each one. I would add support for "catchy" names such as Eyes for You as it's actually lyrical, "I only have eyes, for you..." I think women's names are a sure bet to make them marketable, too. How many times have you at least been tempted to buy a rose (or other plant) to honor someone because it was their name? Believe me, it can be a very emotional moment! I planted a fuchsia in a friend's garden I'd found, which bore her name. She called to tell me how much she loved it. I asked if she'd red the tag. She returned, exclaiming, "it's MY name!" The next time I saw them, her husband came up to me, wrapped his arm around my shoulder, looked me in the eye and said, "Ya made my girl cry!" I apologized and asked if that was a good thing. He winked and said, "Thanks!" I thought it very sweet after forty years of marriage.

Why must only minis get the catchy, "cutsie" names? At least Ketchup and Mustard FITS the coloring of the rose and doesn't gag me like names such as "Angel Face". Argh!
Reply #8 of 26 posted 9 FEB 12 by Seil
Oh, I too have bought my share strictly because of the name. At one time I had one for each member of my family except my brother Alan. He was very disappointed because we just couldn't find any rose named Alan.

And I confess I like the cutsie names! I bought Tattooed Lady because the name just tickled me and I don't even have a tattoo. Once I got the rose I found the name really does fit the look of the rose too. I love the name "White Pearl in Red Dragon's Mouth" and wish I could grow it here. "Tipsy Imperial Concubine" Is another great one.

For my money I hope breeders don't all decide to get all serious and only use "elegant" names. I hope they continue to come up with fun and sometimes intriguing names. My brother dubbed one of my seedlings out of What a Peach, "Son of a Peach" and I like it, lol!
Reply #9 of 26 posted 9 FEB 12 by Rupert, Kim L.
Tom Carruth told the story of a peach colored moss mini he created some years ago. The naming was a collaborative effort in the office. One of the marketing people suggested the name they went with, Peach Fuzz, and then from then on, he checked to see how "his rose" was doing. I agree with you about cute names. I've been accused of using "quirky" names. Perhaps. I'm still looking for just the right seedling to name, "Tequilla Mockingbird"!
Reply #10 of 26 posted 9 FEB 12 by Seil
Lol, I love it, Kim! I think it would need to be yellow and orange stripes myself.

I'll bet that naming that rose Peach Fuzz gave that worker the feeling he had a vested interest in the rose so he wanted to keep track of it.
Reply #11 of 26 posted 9 FEB 12 by Rupert, Kim L.
I'm sure of it. Can you imagine how exciting it was for him to go home and tell his family HE named their new rose, then share such a clever name with them?

I love the stories behind them such as the ones for Just Joey and Hi. They're cute and real. I really must retaliate for Angel Face and name one "Kissie Face"!
Reply #12 of 26 posted 9 FEB 12 by Jay-Jay
We grow Warm Wishes at our front door; not for the name, (that's a bonus) but for the colour.
But my wifes taste altered and this autumn we'll plant there brighter and smaller roses: Tintinara.
We'll keep the W.W. and plant them elsewhere in the garden.
Reply #13 of 26 posted 9 FEB 12 by Aurelija
Hm I normally do not buy a rose because of the name, although some are a nice bonus (like Jude the Obscure, Distant Drums, A Whiter Shade of Pale or Alchemist).

I wish there was more naming based on a literature/movie characters than the real people. To give a well know example, a name Princess Leia would say more than a name Carrie Fisher, an actress who played her in the SW saga, or Arwen Evenstar would say more than Liv Tyler, who played her in LoTR.

I have a fair share of the obligatory real "ladies" in the garden, and most of them leave me rather cold and uninterested when I Google up who their were.

I am not all that fond of the "Captain Obvious is obvious" names either, like Pink Beauty, Pink Angel, Pink Cover, etc. There is zero imagination and poetry in that. Could as well be named a Pink Zombie (or Pink Zombina, to follow a generic femininity of the rose names). x)
Reply #14 of 26 posted 9 FEB 12 by Rupert, Kim L.
Agreed, but naming a rose for a "celebrity" is a two edged sword. You'll have those who will buy it FOR the connection and many who won't buy it BECAUSE of it. Naming them for politicians, particularly here in the US is now certain death for a rose in most cases. Austin was very wise to choose Shakespeare to name some of his earlier roses for, but even those can have negative connotations. You'd have to be very careful to obtain permission (often with financial considerations involved) to use modern fictional character names. Not that you'd want to, but imagine what it might cost for permission to call a rose "Shrek"!

Ironically, it's the "zombie" type names you dislike which sell best, at least in this country. They have no negative associations with people or behaviors, are easily remembered, and possess enough of a positive and descriptive element to remain 'commercial' for decades without any special social or political knowledge of a particular time required to understand their names. Warren Millington, an Australian breeder, has a real knack for coming up with amusing, entertaining, descriptive, memorable names. You should check his out. I think you'd enjoy them.
Reply #15 of 26 posted 9 FEB 12 by Aurelija
Hehe Natural Blonde and Social Butterfly are definitely names to remember. :)

Regarding the naming though, the copyright issue is rather complicated. In general you cannot copyright the names (imagine a hassle if someone called their child Shrek, and if then someone wanted to call a rose after mister Shrek Smith). There are fine lines with it of course and the various institutional demands, and in general it is less stressful not to pick the obvious unique naming. However, the trick is to pick the less obvious cultural references, like for example a common phrase "At least we don't sparkle" is a direct reference to the movie saga Twilight, however you cannot pin a copyright to this kind of cultural reference, because it is too generic, although identifiable phrase. :)

Said that, my generation probably will be garden marketing viable only in a few decades, so I am rather curious how that will change the generic naming trends. :)
Reply #16 of 26 posted 9 FEB 12 by Rupert, Kim L.
Those are funny! A few years ago, J&P introduced two climbers, High Society and Social Climber. Of course, I liked the second one a lot better, both for size, color, health and definitely the name! Ralph Moore named a striped seedling, Two Timer, and a mutual friend went absolutely ballistic as her ex husband was one!

In 1927 there was a HT named, with permission, for the industrialist, Henry Ford. Twenty-seven years later, his permission was once again asked to name a rose for him, which he refused. The creator actually found another gentleman named Henry Ford and obtained HIS permission to name the rose for him, though the public never knew it.
Reply #17 of 26 posted 9 FEB 12 by Aurelija
lol, Social Climber sounds like a perfect name for a rose that tends to escape to the neighbors garden, you know, to socialize (and steal their sunlight). :)
Reply #18 of 26 posted 10 FEB 12 by Rupert, Kim L.
Actually, that's more High Society around here. It's a much larger climber. Social Climber is quite happy in a 20" pot on a friend's patio, growing happily into her lattice covering. In the open ground, it's usually less than 10' high, making it perfect for the common wrought iron fencing in newer communities. It's healthy, vigorous, fairly heavily flowering in a nice color and large flowers. Pretty much the perfect climber for smaller areas which can't handle a barn eater.
Reply #19 of 26 posted 23 MAR 16 by Daniel Alm
The name Ketchup & Mustard doesn't bother me, but certain first ladies are not allowed in my garden because of their husbands' sins. I recently broke down and bought JACsegra, I feel terrible giving money to that institution's agenda, but I bought it end of the season discounted 50% off, so hopefully the money didn't get into their coffers. I refuse to call JACsegra by its exhibition name, totally creeps me out.
Reply #20 of 26 posted 23 MAR 16 by Rupert, Kim L.
I understand your sentiments, but is that one really any more offensive than any of these? JACbush, AROnance, JACorbet, JACtanre, JACurnam, JACgray. None of these have ever, nor will ever, grow in my garden.
Reply #21 of 26 posted 23 MAR 16 by Daniel Alm
I find all of them equally offensive, but thankfully, the ones you listed are mediocre roses that are as odious as their namesakes. JACsegra is an excellent rose by all accounts and I like the color too. It's a shame I can't find Karen Blixen sold anywhere, because I'd rather have bought that as a lesser evil.
Reply #22 of 26 posted 23 MAR 16 by Jay-Jay
Karen Blixen is a rather nice rose in my opinion, but doesn't perform that well.
Really good performers are Ingrid Bergman and Ambiente. Pumping out flowers all season long, in contrary to Karen Blixen. Parole is a very good-one too, with huge well formed flowers and as a bonus a very good scent!!!
Reply #23 of 26 posted 24 MAR 16 by Raynyk
It's almost a bit embarrasing but I'm a sucker for the romantic sound of the old french roses, Souvenir de la Malmaison, Madame Legras de St. Germain, Ghislaine de Feligonde, Belle Sans Flatterie etc. I usually don't read up on the history of the names, or the persons and places behind it as it's mostly a letdown.
But if I would have two equal roses and one of them is named Pink Sweetie and the other Souvenir de la Reine de Senteur I always go for the later one. A bit silly maybe and I'm not even frenchspeaking.
Reply #24 of 26 posted 7 APR by a_carl76
I believe I found this rose being sold at a big box store here in Iowa in the bag with sawdust under the name of "Gold and Fire". Isn't it sad that I think this name is better. It isn't blooming yet but the description does seem to fit so I bought it to see if it really is. I also found that they are selling Tropical Lightening as Climbing Lightening. Unlike many other places, the bagged roses at this place are usually correctly labeled and I was willing to shell out the $3.99 to test it out.
Reply #25 of 26 posted 8 APR by Nastarana
There are three historic daffodils from the 1820s, I believe, named 'Butter and Eggs', 'Eggs and Bacon' and 'Codlins and Cream'. So, K&M may someday seem merely quaint--those silly early 21stC Americans you know--, and the name is at least a welcome change from the Romance Novel Soft Core Porn school of marketing. The rose seems very handsome, but I wonder how it might perform in a cold climate. Can anyone compare it with 'Kleopatra', which I think has similar coloring?
Reply #26 of 26 posted 8 APR by Andrew from Dolton
Dianthus 'Sops in Wine' is older still.
most recent 3 MAY 15 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 3 MAY 15 by HenriettaR
This is a wonderful photo. You tempted me and I ordered it with my (very small this year) annual rose binge. We will see how it does in the miserably hot summer of the North Central Valley in California.
most recent 16 DEC 14 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 15 DEC 14 by RoseNutButStillLearning
Gorgeous color, excellent horticultural specimen. Jealous as sin! ;-)
Reply #1 of 1 posted 16 DEC 14 by Seil
Thank you, Rose Nut! It's a very good rose and one of my favorite Buck roses, second only to Quietness, which, believe it or not, out blooms even this one! They are both fairly good at fighting off black spot and both are extremely winter hardy for me.
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