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CybeRose 
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This note may explain why the Musk roses were said to be strictly late bloomers (August, September). Being cut back nearly to the ground seems to be a good way to delay the flowering, and possibly to increase the display.
The Compleat Florist (2nd ed. 1706)
Louis Liger d'Auxerre
Of the Rosa Moschata, alias Damask-Roses.
Your Damask Rose-Tree, requires a good Kitchin-Garden-Ground, a hot Sun, and frequent watering. One Advantage it has, that 'tis not afraid of Cold, and yields Flowers several Months in the Year.
The Rules of Gardening injoin us in every Autumn and Spring, to cut the old Branches of the Damask-Rose Tree to within Half a Foot of the Ground, that the Eyes which there remain may give Rise to many new Branches, which being unexhausted, will produce Roses in very great abundance.
We propagate this Species by the Sucker, which sprout from it, and which being planted in a fresh Place, readily take Root, and in a little time become pretty Shrubs.
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I don't know whether someone else has already commented on this elsewhere. I have a mature R. moschata, planted around 2010 and left to grow. Once it got going, which took a few years, it went up and up, getting support as it got larger as its growth is lax, and has now reached the dimensions of a moderate climber. It has never gotten much pruning, just occasional light removal of aged growth, and has never been cut back hard in its life, but it blooms the latest of all my roses. This year it came into flower this month, July, and I think that's usual. (In comparison, this year the Teas began flowering in April, and the once-blooming roses, Gallicas and Co., in May.) It does well in our climate in the Italian hills, with mild temperatures, summer heat and drought, good annual water, historically around one meter annually, though recent years may be drier. It gets no supplementary water and blooms well nonetheless.
A couple of comments about the observations in 'The Compleat Florist': hard pruning at the right time of year likely would keep the plant shrubby, and also likely cause the plant to require more water for regrowth. My unpruned plant blooms tolerably well, but I'm not fussy about these things. Also, my plant, own root, has not so far suckered out.
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#2 of 2 posted
15 JUL by
jedmar
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It seems to me that in 1706 they sometimes called our R. damascena as R. moschata.
We do not prune our R. moschata either. It grows high into an apple tree. Flowering season in Switzerland is August-September
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Rose Listing Omission
Thomas Gerrard
Florist, Fruitist and Garden Miscellany (Dec 1881) p.188
THE NEW ROSE THOMAS GERRARD originated with Mr G. C. Garnett, an accomplished rosarian, residing near Dublin, and will be propagated and distributed by Messrs. Keynes and Son, of Salisbury. It is a sport, and the following is its history:— In July, 1878, a dwarf standard of Letty Coles, herself a sport, was budded with Niphetos; the bud did not push, but remained dormant during the winter. In the spring of 1879 it produced a shoot, which ultimately died away. The blooms of that year and 1880 were those of Letty Coles, very fine, but true to colour and character. In April 1881, a strong shoot appeared, producing two flower-buds, which, when fully developed, were both parti-coloured or piebald, the colours white and salmon-rose. After Mr. Garnett had cut away the wood to forward for propagation to the Messrs. Keynes, a second sport of three blooms appeared, all rose-coloured, and only one showing the colour and perfection of the first sport. Some of the most noteworthy roses in cultivation have resulted from cross-budding. Marshal Niel, the finest of all yellow roses, it is said originated in this way; a bud of Cloth of Gold was inserted on wood of the American Isabella Gray, the result of the union being the famous Marshal Niel. Then, again, Mabel Morrison was produced from bud variation produced through the inoculation of Baroness Rothschild with Niphetos. Belle Lyonnaise is the outcome of Gloire de Dijon budded with Celine Forestier. Finally, Letty Coles herself is a bud sport from Madame Willermoz rose.
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I'm confused or amazed by this. Does cross-budding really produce sports? Not as I understand genetics. Maybe epigenetics?
Trawling rapidly through the references for Marechal Niel, I see it quoted as a chance seedling of Isabella Gray or Lamarque or Cloth of Gold, and as Solfatare x Isabella Gray. And at least two breeders named, and two versions of the story of how it got its name.
Fame leads to urban myth.
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#2 of 12 posted
20 MAY by
jedmar
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Added. This rose could just have been a throw-back to Mélanie Willermoz, of which Letty Coles was a sport itself.
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That makes sense. What it was budded onto made no genetic contribution to this rose, nor to the other examples cited.
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#4 of 12 posted
20 MAY by
jedmar
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I believe so too. Genetics wasn't understood so well in the 1880s.
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#5 of 12 posted
30 MAY by
CybeRose
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Margaret,
I didn't give the matter any thought when I found the little article. I have come across many odd notions in the old publications. Now I guess I'll have to do more searching to see if this "cross-budding" was a wide-spread practice of just a local fancy.
This is certainly the first time I've read that Marechal Niel was a sport of any kind.
Karl
A quick search informs me that the article was originally published in the Irish Farmer's Gazette.. So maybe the practice was more common in Ireland.
Wrong! Now I find that the much longer, original article was in The Indian Gardener. The author goes on the discuss buds of Xavier Olibo inserted on a strong cane of Marechal Niel. The following year, all the Marechal buds opened with a deep crimson running through every petal. Eventually, all the flowers were so colored. Maybe there is something to this ... if only in India.
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Can't buy it. All those roses budded on Dr Huey, R indica major, Fortuneana, R canina - you'd think someone would see something if there was any validity to it.
I think Jedmar is right - they just didn't know much about genetics when the article was written.
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#7 of 12 posted
31 MAY by
CybeRose
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I can't argue. I just like to note the odd and interesting things I find. Some influence may have been transient.
The article does not name the author, so I can't go any further in that direction.
bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/IndianRosesBudded1885.htm
Some apparent transient effects:
The Gardeners’ Monthly and Horticulturist 18: 266 (Sept. 1876)
Pink Marechal Niel Rose.—A pink Marechal Niel rose appears to have been secured by our excellent coadjutor Mr. Thomas Trussler, of Edmonton, and should it prove to bear the test of criticism it will add to the series of illustrations recorded of the reciprocal influence of stock and graft. A bud of John Hopper was entered on a brier in the usual way, and afterwards a bud of Marechal Niel was entered on John Hopper. The result is apparently a pink Marechal Niel. The flower before us is smaller than the type; it is pale lemon-yellow without, with a diaphonous tint of pink within, very pleasing, and in some degree resembling Devoniensis. Should it prove permanent it will be peculiarly interesting.— Gardener's Magazine.
American Gardening 14(9): 519 (1893)
Influence of Different Stocks on Marechal Niel Rose
JOHN DALLAS, Connecticut
Some years ago, in experimenting with different stocks in an endeavor to find the most suitable whereon to bud Marechal Niel, I was surprised at the different results attained, showing conclusively that the stock influences the color of the flowers. The stocks used were roses, America, Cloth of Gold [Chromatella], Lamarque and Ophier [Ophirie]. The stocks were planted at wide intervals in a span-roofed house, in two rows six feet apart, running north and south. All were budded at the same height, and trained horizontally on a wire trellis, forming an arbor 162 feet long by 6 feet wide. All made rapid growth and filled their allotted space. America is a buff or apricot-colored rose, and in many respects a good, serviceable running rose. An old Connecticut rose grower made the assertion that this rose stood in the same relation to the family of roses that America does to the family of nations. Although I am unable to endorse his sentiment regarding the rose, I can fully recommend it as an excellent stock for Marechal Niel. The union was so complete that years after it was impossible to tell where it had been budded. The flowers of Marechal Niel were lighter in color on this stock than on Cloth of Gold, which, but for one fault, is much the best stock of those under consideration. This fault is the inability of the stock to keep pace in growth with the Marechal Niel, causing a protuberance at the point of union, and finally resulting in a cankerous disease. The flowers from this stock were a very deep yellow, remarkably so when placed beside those from the Lamarque stock. The Lamarque, besides producing very light-colored flowers, has the same fault as Cloth of Gold, and in a few years showed signs of canker where budded. Ophier is an old rose of a tan or copper color, short dumpy buds, but a fine cup shape when nearly open. We have in this rose the most convincing proof of the influence of the stock on the color of the flowers, and not only the color but also the form. The petals of the Marechal Niel were deeply tinted with copper color half their length, the base of the flower a deep yellow, and the form of the flower was almost identical with Ophier. All the stocks under consideration had the same soil, equal light advantages, but yet produced decidedly different shades of yellow, and each retained these characteristics until they were destroyed.
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Fascinating!
Margaret
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Margaret,
Absence of red pigment in a flower is sometimes a dominant trait. Mansuino's beautiful 'Purezza' was bred from 'Tom Thumb' and R. banksiae lutescens. He wrote, "By crossing the seedling (R. banksiae lutescens x Tom Thumb) with the old Noisette Lamarque I have lately obtained a Banksiae type bearing beautiful deep rose colored flowers. Its open-pollinated seeds gave last year some Miniatures producing in profusion flowers of charming colors."
I'm guessing that the red pigment potential was hiding in both of the white-flowered parents. This implies that the absence of red pigment, in these cases, was a matter of gene regulation rather than the old "presence-absence" assumption.
As it happens, such regulation can involve epigenetic control of "transposons". And this can be transmitted between grafts, assuming that the controlling system of one part of the graft is compatible with the relevant transposon of the other.
bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/GarciaPerezSilencing2004.html
The cases I mentioned suggest that 'Marechal Niel' has the chemical machinery to make red pigment (as we see in its leaves), but carries the "not in the petals" suppression factor.
'Niphetos' seems to have carried a strong dose of red-suppression ... enough to affect other varieties. But without the genuine 'Niphetos', testing is not possible.
One other fact to consider: Diamond Jubilee (Marechal Niel x Feu Pernet-Ducher)
This rose can't decide how much pink color to mix with the soft yellow. The "dominant non-red" is also found in the Pernetianas.
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That makes sense.
I'm guessing that propagating the scion further, either own-root or on a different stock, would lose the controlling effect of the first understock.
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#11 of 12 posted
2 JUN by
CybeRose
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This whole business gets tangled in language and negative logic. Silencing a suppression, for instance, looks like promotion of what was formerly suppressed.
The Garcia-Perez (2004) paper indicates that the silencing can pass across the graft union and "stick". And once the silencing is established, it can pass along the silencing "signal".
So why not every time? This is where I can't go on guessing. There are cases where the age of the stock and scion are relevant. For instance, it was discovered around 200 years ago that seedling cherries, pears, apples, and other trees will adopt the root-growth habit of the mature scions grafted on them. This worked on almost all seedlings (aside from some stubborn specimens) but only if the saplings are no more than two or three years old.
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Well, I've learned something from all this.
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Nos de Rosarum catalogo parum soliciti sumus, quamdiu species distinguere non novimus, omnes enim quae in hortis extant plenae & monstrosae sunt; nec species determinatae in Rosis ab ullo sunt, nec possunt ab alio, quam qui in locis natalibus examinet, describi. Descriptiones datae sunt varietatum, non specierum notae. Variant dein fructu non minus quam Pyra vel Poma.
We are a little anxious about the catalog of roses, so long as we do not know how to distinguish the species, for all that exist in gardens are full and monstrous; neither are the species determined in the Roses by any one, nor can they be described by any other than he who examines them in their native places. Descriptions are given of varieties, not specific species. Then they vary in fruit no less than pears or apples.
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Roses of Monterey: a book for rose lovers, p.18. 1933
Frances E. Lester
SUSAN LOUISE, Originated by Dr. Adams, of San Jose, Calif., seedling of Belle of Portugal; a very strong growing New Rose of much merit; beautiful long buds and very fragrant, well formed light pink flowers borne continuously all through the season.
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#1 of 1 posted
1 APR 23 by
BrianH
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I love this rose. The blooms look nearly identical to my favorite rose, Belle of Portugal, in fact I would be hard pressed to tell them apart. Susan Louise, unlike its barn-eating parent, repeat-flowers constantly. Also, its foliage is a bit darker green, yet retains the droopy leaves flushed with red when young, looking what I think to be like its R. gigantea forbear. The impossibly long and slender buds nod on their stems, and open beautifully when cut. High-centered flowers open to blousy perfection, with subtle variations between delicate pink to cream. My plant is only beginning its second year. I expect it will top 2 meters/seven feet with time, so I am happy to allow it more than usual space. I think this is not a rose for the control-queens among us. Like many teas, it seems to thrive best when left to its own devices, gradually building up a slender and open framework. I think attempts to make it "more bushy" or to bear extra-long HT stems may not end well. It was, however, the first to bloom of all my roses and managed an occasional flower right through the winter months in this mild zone 10a area. There have been no disease problems so far, knock wood. I got it from the amazing Burling Leong at Burlington Nursery as a well-rooted cutting. It took off like a rocket as soon as the weather warmed. I was very glad to find it.
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