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billy teabag
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Initial post 2 days ago by HubertG
The description page for 'Alexander Hill Gray' says "sets no hips". I've always found mine sets hips (which hold seeds) fairly readily. I find this a bit puzzling.
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Reply #1 of 11 posted 2 days ago by HMF Admin
And this is exactly why comments like yours are so useful and what makes HMF so special. At some point in time, a permanent reference indicated otherwise and now we know that reference is in question based on your experience.

We need more people take the time to share their experience - Thanks !
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Reply #2 of 11 posted 2 days ago by Patricia Routley
I certainly wouldn't discount that reference Admin. What we need is more of them to say if this rose does, or does not set hips. The fact that we show just one 1922 descendant indicates that it does not, and therefore there is a possibility that HubertG has received a rose other than 'Alexander Hill Gray'. Every reference is valuable.
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Reply #3 of 11 posted 2 days ago by HubertG
Thanks HMF Admin,
This site is a veritable commonwealth of rose knowledge; the more contributions the better.

Patricia, I have two bushes of AHG ordered from different nurseries maybe 5 years apart. They are both the same and both do set hips. They do look the same as other AHGs in Australia posted here (I've posted a few photos of mine too) This is a double rose but not what I'd call a full one and so they have normal looking reproductive parts and, if insects can get in, I can't see any reason (barring an odd ploidy) why it shouldn't set hips. That's why I thought the no hips reference was unusual. By the time AHG was introduced Teas were waning in popularity, so that is probably the likeliest reason it wasn't used much in breeding, in my opinion.
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Reply #4 of 11 posted 2 days ago by HubertG
There are in fact a couple of hips on Margaret Furness' photo here:

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.304447
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Reply #5 of 11 posted 2 days ago by Patricia Routley
That is interesting HubertG. They are hard to see, but I do see them.
I suspect Margaret didn't note them as she has said in her more recent photo 315211 that her plant didn't set hips.
Unfortunately 'Alexander Hill Gray' never came my way, so I have no first-hand experience. How else can I help here?
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Reply #6 of 11 posted 2 days ago by HubertG
Best to wait for more comments on this topic, I'd say.
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Reply #7 of 11 posted 2 days ago by Margaret Furness
Maybe it varies with how the weather has been. There's nothing on mine now that I would call a hip. It doesn't flower much in a dry summer.
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Reply #8 of 11 posted 2 days ago by billy teabag
Do your 'Alexander Hill Gray' plants have prickles HubertG?
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Reply #9 of 11 posted 2 days ago by HubertG
No, it's virtually thornless. I took some photos this morning of a few hips on one of my AHGs, which I'll post later.

Its thornlessness was the reason I had previously questioned whether it might have in fact been Mme Derepas-Metrat, one of the other "Yellow Cochets", because that was nearly thornless according to references, and thornlessness is a rarity in early roses.
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Reply #10 of 11 posted yesterday by HubertG
There were five hips on one of my plants this morning. I didn't check the other plant. The split hip is one I collected about April, showing the seeds. I do think the weather conditions play a part; AHG does tend to ball a bit, so if it doesn't open, it won't become fertilised.
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Reply #11 of 11 posted today by Patricia Routley
HubertG, I have added a few more references. I have more but it is late and I don't think any more are relevant. Take a look at the 1939 reference. I suspect there may be different versions of 'Alexander Hill Gray' in Australia as the 1998 reference says this rose fades. Most other references says it deepens.
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Initial post 10 days ago
* This post deleted by user *
Reply #1 of 5 posted 9 days ago by Margaret Furness
An excellent series of photos for identification purposes. (I'm not expert enough to suggest a name.) One question for other readers: does it flower just at this time of the year, or does it repeat?
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Reply #2 of 5 posted 9 days ago by Dusan
It repeat flowering in flushes. First bloom appears in may and now I waiting new series. Thank you.
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Reply #3 of 5 posted 9 days ago by billy teabag
Do you know the approximate age of the plant?
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Reply #4 of 5 posted 9 days ago by Dusan
Must be 20+ years old. I cut she little harder. Also I think it is climber.
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Reply #5 of 5 posted 9 days ago by Patricia Routley
I am sorry, I cannot help, but on your search for its correct name, keep in mind this rose's rounded leaves with very pointed tips - and the fact that it has prickles way up the stem.
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Reply #6 of 5 posted yesterday by Dusan
This rose must be introduced before 1995 or older.

I think this can be: Parade (climber, Boerner, 1953)

What you think?
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most recent 2 days ago SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 24 JUN by Andrew from Dolton
You make my northern hemisphere winter solstice of holly and ivy look extremely dull and pedestrian. The nights will be drawing out for you for the next six months now.
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Reply #1 of 3 posted 28 JUN by billy teabag
This is true - and by Summer solstice there should be some nice crispy blooms to arrange.
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Reply #2 of 3 posted 2 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
Will you be posting any more pictures of your wonderful midwinter roses this year?
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Reply #3 of 3 posted 2 days ago by HubertG
I'd certainly look forward to a special treat of Billy's roses too!
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most recent 5 days ago SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 12 MAR by HubertG
From 'Dingee Guide to Rose Culture' 1912:

Under "Hardy Everblooming Tea Roses"
"ALBERT STOPFORD: It is superb, like Bon Silene, a vigorous and free bloomer, producing beautiful flowers in great profusion. The color is a very dark crimson-rose."

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dingee_guide_to_rose_culture_-_for_more_than_60_years_an_authority_(1915)_(20767762698).jpg

Page number not listed.
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Reply #1 of 15 posted 12 MAR by Patricia Routley
Thanks HubertG. Reference added.
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Reply #2 of 15 posted 12 MAR by HubertG
You're very welcome.

I was actually wondering whether this rose was Vestey's Pink Tea? I know that this rose is listed as identical to General Schablikine, but I grow both and don't see them being the same. VPT is very similar to General Schablikine, but there are enough differences in my mind to know they aren't identical.
Considering Albert Stopford is a seedling of General Schablikine by Papa Gontier, it could fit the bill for Vestey's Pink Tea.

Do you know if Albert Stopford was sold in Australia?
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Reply #3 of 15 posted 12 MAR by Margaret Furness
An intriguing thought. Could you post side-by-side comparison photos showing receptacle, bud, prickles, leaves, flowers?
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Reply #4 of 15 posted 12 MAR by HubertG
Sure, the only reservation I have is that my two roses grow in different conditions. My General Schablikine is in the ground and has become huge and my Vestey's Pink is in a large pot and receives a bit less sun. The main differences I discern are in the colour where VPT is consistently less coppery pink than GS and tends to be a brighter carmine more often. The winter flowers are decidedly different with GS being more cupped shaped and VPT more long and of slightly more HT form. At other times of the year the flower form on both is very similar being that shaggy almost pompom look. The fragrance is much the same. GS I think is more prickly, The flower stems on VPT are more often less 'kinky' than GS.
I'll post a few flowers etc for comparison. I don't want to go making any great claims in case they are the same after all.

The best experiment would be to take cuttings from both and give them identical culture to see if what, if any, differences can be discerned. I'll try that.
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Reply #5 of 15 posted 13 MAR by Patricia Routley
Provenances?
Have you obtained that book yet?
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Reply #6 of 15 posted 13 MAR by HubertG
I've been reading the Tea Rose book online, and plan on putting my hands on a hard copy.

Regarding the provenances I can't be sure without looking up really old cheque butts. I think I bought my General Schablikine from Golden Vale in about 1998. I bought Vestey's Pink Tea at a guess in 2005 after I read about it in Botanica but I can't remember from where. I'll check when I have time.
Here are some photos of buds at about the same stage that I picked today (13/3/18). The colour is hard to capture accurately but GS is a warmer pink and VPT is cooler. The other noticeable difference is that usually VPT displays the long 5th sepal a la Lady Hillingdon, whereas this is rare in GS. This is what made me think that Albert Stopford could be a contender for Vestey's Pink as both Lady Hillingdon and Albert Stopford have Papa Gontier as a parent. The glands on the stem of GS, VPT and Papa Gontier all smell the same too.
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Reply #7 of 15 posted 13 MAR by Margaret Furness
Thank you - that's a good start. Colours of potted plants are a problem. I had three gallicas or hybrid gallicas that should have been mauve, but in Nu-earth Premium were pink last spring. I'll have to see what they look like in the ground this year.
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Reply #8 of 15 posted 13 MAR by HubertG
I think the best way to compare is to take cuttings from both and grow them in identical mix, pots, fertiliser and sun.
However over the many years I've grown them, there are too many differences for me to currently think they are the same rose.
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Reply #9 of 15 posted 13 MAR by Margaret Furness
It's probably still warm enough where you are to try the doggybag technique of taking cuttings now -
see http://heritage.rose.org.au/rose-propagation I use Perlite as aerator now, since the kittylitter formula appears to have changed, and I haven't yet found another that's suitable. Or you could send me cuttings of "Vestey's Pink Tea" if you like, to try in the ground eventually (I've had General Schab in-ground for about 9 years). A couple of Tealadies visit from time to time. Check with quarantine first re sending to SA though. Sending to WA would be better but quarantine is too much of a hurdle.
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Reply #10 of 15 posted 13 MAR by HubertG
Thanks, I'll give that technique a go.
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Reply #11 of 15 posted 13 MAR by Patricia Routley
......Do you know if Albert Stopford was sold in Australia?

No it was not. It did get to New Zealand, but not Australia. In my garden, both "Vestey's Pink Tea" and 'General Schablikine' are the same.
Your roses may be the same, but you are pushing roses uphill trying to compare a less-sun tea in a pot with a full-sun tea in the ground. In case they are different, to find out which of your roses is the true 'General Schablikine', watch every bloom for that S-bend curve of the consistently bristly pedicel. Then go to work on the other rose keeping 'Mme. Lambard' and 'Monsieur Tillier' in the back of your mind.
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Reply #12 of 15 posted 13 MAR by HubertG
I do grow the rose that was sold in Australia as "Freiherr von Marschall" (that now seems to be re-identified as Mme Lambard) and my Vestey's isn't that. I grew a Monsier Tillier from Green E's nursery and currently have a Archiduc Joseph from Mistydown's and isn't either of those either. (I don't know if those two roses were correctly identified but they were different in any case). I don't doubt my General Schablikine is the real thing either.

I think it's best to compare cuttings grown in the same conditions. My Vestey's Pink has been moved around in a pot quite a bit and has received more sun at times and it doesn't really change that much. Conversely I have a cutting of General Schablikine growing in a small pot in a shady spot and it still puts out flowers like its parent bush.

My Vestey's Pink rarely shows much kink to the stem like GS does, but that could be cultural. However, I think that long 5th sepal must be genetic, not a cultivational difference. Few tea roses have that.

If someone has incorrectly identified Vestey's Pink Tea as General Schablikine, maybe the nurseries have merged stock and Patricia is comparing two General Schablikines. (?)

I'll let this be for now and report back when I can compare cuttings. Lastly though here are the opening flowers of the two buds I compared yesterday. The biggest noticeable difference is in the colour which is consistently less coppery in Vestey's Pink.
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Reply #13 of 15 posted 14 MAR by billy teabag
It was our Tea rose study group that noticed "Vestey's Pink Tea" is the same as 'General Schablikine' while we were researching the roses for the Tea rose book. This wasn't done in haste or based on the comparison of single plants.
The roses were growing side by side in the display garden of Melvilles rose Nursery near Perth in the late 1990s and this is where we first noted that they appeared to be the same.
I have a number of quotations on the pinup board behind my computer that I find useful when researching roses and anything else for that matter. One of them is Richard Buckminster Fuller's "You uncover what is when you get rid of what isn’t." and another, this humbling one by the late Trevor Griffiths "Identification is a complex subject. The worst mistake that can be made is that you should assume the name for your particular rose is the correct one and that everyone else is wrong." (from A Celebration of Old Roses p15).

There is always a lot of that about - between the six who researched and wrote the book, we probably had every misnamed Tea rose in the country growing in our gardens so we were very aware of the perils of mislabeling and the difficulties that can arise when sorting out which (and whose) roses are correctly named. To check for the possibility that Melvilles might have a misnamed rose, we ordered roses from a number of interstate nurseries and, in this case, we always received the same rose under the name "Vestey's Pink Tea". 'General Schablikine' was a different matter - apart from 'General Schablikine labelled 'General Schablikine', some nurseries were sending out 'Mons Tillier' as 'General Schablikine' and some sent 'General Gallieni' (and vice versa). We also received "[not] Souvenir d'Un Ami" with a 'General Schablikine' label.

For our book to be useful, we needed to know whether we (ie, East, Central and West Australian gardeners) were growing the same Tea roses under the same names and, if there were discrepancies, to understand what and where they were, and how they come about. So we took every opportunity to visit collections in nurseries and gardens in other states. Of course there were discrepancies - even with the utmost diligence, there are inevitably occasional errors in labeling and once they get into a distribution stream, the errors spread, sometimes quite widely. The good news was that the discrepancies were where they were expected to be, and thanks to information shared by nursery people and rose collectors, for reasons we came to understand.
Rustons Roses, at that time the main supplier of budwood to Australian rose nurseries, had stock plants of both 'General Schablikine' and "Vestey's Pink Tea" and we had the opportunity to examine them closely on a number of visits to the garden in Renmark. 'General Schablikine', like most Teas, varies in bloom form and colour with the seasons and in response to different conditions and rootstocks but at Rustons Roses, as in Melville's Nursery, the roses were undoubtedly the same. After we drew David Ruston's attention to this he watched his plants like a hawk and after a number of years he told us he was in complete agreement.
We were satisfied the roses were the same before publishing the information.
It is always good to have an analytical eye on rose identification work. Thank you for your careful observations and reasoning. I hope you are able to strike cuttings of both your roses and to eventually grow them in the same conditions and that this discussion can continue in the future. With enough time and patience, the roses do give up their answers.
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Reply #14 of 15 posted 6 days ago by HubertG
From the 'Journal des Roses' 1914, page 165

"Albert Stopford (thé) - Fleur très grande, pleine, uniflore à grands sépales, très grand pétales épais, coloris rose foncé carminé brillant, centre cuivré, pétales exterieurs carmin foncé recourbés gracieusement, bouton allongé, très bien fait, porté par une longue tige, grand feuillage, très fort bois, épines fortes; arbuste très vigoureux, très florifere (odorante). Issue de Général Schablikine et de Papa Gontier."

My translation:
Albert Stopford (Tea) - Flower very large, full, solitary with large sepals, very large thick petals, colour bright dark carmine pink, centre coppery, outer petals dark carmine recurving gracefully, long bud, very well formed, carried on a long stem, grand foliage, very strong wood, strong thorns; bush very vigorous, very floriferous (fragrant). Seedling from General Schablikine by Papa Gontier.

Note: I've translated "grand feuillage" as grand foliage rather than large foliage. Had feuilles (leaves) been used rather than feuillage (foliage) "large" might have made more sense, but I get the impression it means great/grand/good etc foliage, rather than large leaflets. Maybe someone French might correct this.

Also note the interesting description of the large sepals.


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From the Rosen-Zeitung 1899, page 29:

"Neuste Rosen für 1899.

Züchter: P. C. Nabonnand

Albert Stopford (Thee). Blume glänzend dunkelkarminrosa, Centrum kupfrig, sehr gross, gefüllt, duftend, einzelständig, langknospig. Pflanze sehr kräftig, sehr wohlr. (Général Schablikine x Papa Gontier)."

My translation:
Newest Roses for 1899.
Breeder: P. C. Nabonnand.
Albert Stopford (Tea). Flower bright dark carmine pink, centre coppery, very large, full, scented, solitary, long-budded. Plant very vigorous, very fine. (General Schablikine x Papa Gontier).


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From the Rosen-Zeitung 1899, page 54

"Albert Stopford (Nabonnand) wird durch die grosse, schöne, gefüllte, langknospige Blume ebenso wie durch die hübsche rote Farbe gefallen."

My translation:
Albert Stopford (Nabonnand) will please with its large, beautiful, full, long-budded flower as well as with the pretty red colour.
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Reply #15 of 15 posted 5 days ago by Patricia Routley
References added. Thanks HubertG
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