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billy teabag
most recent 27 FEB HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 27 FEB by billy teabag
The rose with semi-double blooms and leaflets that turn up into a taco shape seen in many of these photos can also be seen labelled 'Duke of York' and 'Papillon', and in the early 1980s, budwood of this rose was sent out from the Sangerhausen rosarium labelled 'Mme Charles', so it's in some gardens under that name as well.
It has very distinctive foliage.
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Reply #1 of 1 posted 27 FEB by jedmar
Thank you, Billy, Added a note.
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most recent 15 FEB SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 10 JAN 21 by petera
I can't see any consistent difference between "Grandma Pfeilers" and 'Laurent Carle'. I think they are the same rose. I have uploaded a bunch of pictures comparing buds, leaves and prickles in my garden. The colour of the prickles differs but they vary between stems of different vigour and age on the same plant. Both plants are on John N's multiflora root stock but 'Laurent Carle' has been in the ground for about 4 years while this is only the second growing season for "Grandma Pfeilers". Despite that GP is almost as large a plant under very similar growing conditions.
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Reply #1 of 12 posted 11 JAN 21 by billy teabag
Gratitude to you for doing this close comparison work and sharing your findings petera.
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Reply #2 of 12 posted 11 JAN 21 by petera
Billy,
Are there any other characteristics you think I should check?
Peter
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Reply #3 of 12 posted 11 JAN 21 by billy teabag
Are the stamen filaments and anthers basically the same colours in both your roses? Do the innards match up? Apart from that, I can't think of anything you haven't covered well in words or images - good photos of all the useful features to compare.
That extravagant inflorescence in your photo is marvellous!
It is on my wish list - there's no substitute for actually growing the roses - watching them over the seasons and handling them, watching for seasonal similarities/differences, hip production, disease resistance etc.
Thanks for the chance to get to know this rose in advance.
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Reply #4 of 12 posted 15 JAN 21 by petera
I am going to have to back track on my opinion that this is Lauren Carle. The latest flush of flowers on my GP in mid-January are mid pink, but those on Lauren Carle haven't changed from their usual cerise red. I am totally confused again as the plants are indistinguishable vegetatively and the spring flowers were all the same colour. The warm weather has only just started here and the LC flowers were about a week ahead of those on GP so they may have not experienced the environmental trigger that caused the change. I will have to check what subsequent flushes do.Sometimes I hate roses.
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Reply #5 of 12 posted 15 JAN 21 by billy teabag
I can relate to that.
Have pairs of roses that have been growing together here for what you’d think would be long enough to know whether they are the same or different but I continue to vacillate.
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Reply #6 of 12 posted 14 FEB by Patricia Routley
PeterA, what are the canes like on your bush?
Do the petals burn in heat?
When would you say was its best season? Early or late... winter, spring, summer or autumn?
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Reply #7 of 12 posted 14 FEB by petera
Patricia,

GP and LC are vegetatively identical and usually the flowers are the same colour, but sometimes the flowers on GP can be a bit paler, depending on the weather. I think both are just different clones of LC that have diverged slightly, which one is closer to the original is anyone's guess. Flowers of both clones burn a bit in hot weather but not as badly as some of the darker reds. It was 37C yesterday with a screaming north-westerly and the flowers were still there but singed around the edges. My GP continues to be a bit more vigorous but both are good performers in the garden and repeat rapidly throughout the growing season, better than a lot of moderns. There isn't a particular season when they are best. I can photograph the stems for you tomorrow. Moderately prickly with largish prickles. What particular characteristics were you interested in?
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Reply #8 of 12 posted 14 FEB by Patricia Routley
Just can’t get Red Radiance (hybrid tea, Gude 1916) characteristics out of my mind.
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Reply #9 of 12 posted 14 FEB by Margaret Furness
We can't even assess relationship, since the parentage of Laurent Carle is unnamed seedling x unnamed seedling. But if you did a blindfold sniff test of a bloom each of "Grandma Pfeiler's" and Red Radiance, you would have no doubt that they were different.
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Reply #10 of 12 posted 15 FEB by petera
I have uploaded pictures of stems of "Grandma Pfeiler's" and Laurent Carle. GP at left and centre and LC on the right. All were taken today in my garden. Short flowering stems are generally prickle-free on both clones.

I don't currently grow Red Radiance but I think it has the same ball of petals in the centre of the bloom even when fully open, just like Radiance while GP opens completely to show stamens.
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Reply #11 of 12 posted 15 FEB by Patricia Routley
Thank you both Margaret and Peter.
I have added a few characteristics to the main page. Shall I add “smooth pedicels”? Photos of the bare winter bush would be valuable I think. It looks a wonderful rose and to know it is so old, gives it added value.
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Reply #12 of 12 posted 15 FEB by Margaret Furness
Smooth receptacles. The bud photo I posted does show some activity on the pedicel - not sure if they're glands or tiny prickles.
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most recent 14 FEB SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 7 FEB by Margaret Furness
Robert, do you think your parent plant was Clementina Carbonieri or Souv de Gilbert Nabonnand? You're the only one recorded to have extracted a seedling from it (whichever).
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Reply #1 of 12 posted 8 FEB by Robert Neil Rippetoe
I believe I got this one from Tom Liggett many years ago and have always assumed it was correct as he undoubtedly got his propagation material from San Jose Heritage.

I do not profess to be an expert on this cultivar. Whatever it is, I have used it as seed parent more than once.
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Reply #2 of 12 posted 8 FEB by billy teabag
In The Roses of the San Jose Heritage Rose Garden Catalog, Tenth Anniversary Edition, April 2005, there are listings for Souvenir de Gilbert Nabonnand and Clementina Carbonieri (in trade as) [= Souvenir de Gilbert Nabonnand].
The provenance of Souvenir de Gilbert Nabonnand is recorded as Goteborg Rosarium, Gothemburg, Sweden.
The provenance of Clementina Carbonieri (in trade as) [= Souvenir de Gilbert Nabonnand] is Kathleen Jagger, Orinda, CA.

We visited The San Jose Heritage Rose Garden in 2005 and my notes from that visit say "These two roses appear to be identical. Cannot find any point of difference."
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Reply #3 of 12 posted 8 FEB by Robert Neil Rippetoe
I can't say I'm surprised. I apparently have the clone from Orinda if this is the case.

Where does this put us in terms of identification?

Has anyone asked Jill, or maybe Gregg Lowery?
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Reply #4 of 12 posted 8 FEB by Margaret Furness
Thanks for a prompt reply Robert. Next question: does your plant (of the parent) have prickles?
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Reply #5 of 12 posted 8 FEB by Robert Neil Rippetoe
Very much so
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Reply #6 of 12 posted 9 FEB by Margaret Furness
We're trying to identify a recently-spotted found rose in this colour range (Souv de Gilbert Nabonnand, Clementina Carbonieri, Isabelle Nabonnand). Looks like it will be hard to find a gold standard to compare it with.
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Reply #7 of 12 posted 9 FEB by Robert Neil Rippetoe
I would guess they have been confused too long to make a determination.

I wonder if some of the older references might give enough information to help sort things out
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Reply #8 of 12 posted 14 FEB by Margaret Furness
Turns out our "new foundling" was a fairly recent seedling of Mons.Tillier, planted in an old cemetery a few years ago by a Heritage Roses member. Traps for the unwary.
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Reply #9 of 12 posted 14 FEB by Robert Neil Rippetoe
Yes, whichever it's moniker, seed fertile,
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Reply #10 of 12 posted 14 FEB by Patricia Routley
Margaret, has it been confirmed that the recent seedling of Mons. Tillier and the “new foundling” were on or nearby the same grave site? Or did they come from different locations?
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Reply #11 of 12 posted 14 FEB by Margaret Furness
Rob, who collected the rose, saw the email from Geoff, who planted it, about its general location. I have asked both about a grave name.
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Reply #12 of 12 posted 14 FEB by Patricia Routley
Thank you Margaret.
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most recent 8 FEB HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 8 FEB by billy teabag
In The Roses of the San Jose Heritage Rose Garden Catalog, Tenth Anniversary Edition, April 2005, there are listings for Souvenir de Gilbert Nabonnand and Clementina Carbonieri (in trade as) [= Souvenir de Gilbert Nabonnand].
The provenance of Souvenir de Gilbert Nabonnand is recorded as Goteborg Rosarium, Gothemburg, Sweden.
The provenance of Clementina Carbonieri (in trade as) [= Souvenir de Gilbert Nabonnand] is Kathleen Jagger, Orinda, CA.

Is there anyone here who can add to this?
Is there any information available re the provenance of the roses in the Goteborg Rosarium?
Does anyone have a record of the source of Kathleen Jagger's rose?
Are there any clues to why it was decided the correct name of the rose is Souvenir de Gilbert Nabonnand?

We visited The San Jose Heritage Rose Garden in 2005 and my notes from that visit say "These two roses appear to be identical. Cannot find any point of difference."
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