HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
billy teabag
most recent 10 days ago SHOW ALL
Initial post 25 FEB by Andrew from Dolton
I'm just ordering a few last minute roses before the suppliers stop sending them. Would 'Gruss an Teplitz' cope with growing in a climate with cool damp summers? There's not enough room for it to grow in a pot up against the house, where it's warmer, so it will have to take its chances in the rest of the garden.
Reply #1 of 37 posted 26 FEB by Michael Garhart
It barely has any tea in it. It's mostly hybrid French OGR's and China. So, it should be theoretically fine as Mutabilis, for example. I imagine the plant shape would suffer though, especially since its plant shape isn't that great to begin with.
Reply #2 of 37 posted 26 FEB by Andrew from Dolton
Thanks Michael,
I thought I was being rather ambitious! China roses would struggle out in the open garden so I'll choose something much hardier instead.
Reply #3 of 37 posted 26 FEB by Michael Garhart
I think the mature shape would look rather depressing in an already low light climate. Yeah, it could do well, but I don't think it would make you happy.
Reply #4 of 37 posted 26 FEB by Andrew from Dolton
I was seduced by edulkot's lovely picture,
I'll rein-in my desires, my second choice was 'Violacea', gallica roses grow very well with me.
Reply #5 of 37 posted 26 FEB by Michael Garhart
I imagine so. I recently tried to get Eblouissant, which is like a dwarf poly version of GA Templitz (sorta), but no one has it available to my state anymore. You should look for that one, too!

Question: Can people from the UK order from mainland Europe w/ ease? There are so many countries and so many varieties there. Or is it a hassle?
Reply #6 of 37 posted 26 FEB by Andrew from Dolton
I have ordered roses from Europe before but the roses ended-up being rather expensive (inexplicably 'Gloire des Rosomanes' and 'Erinnerung an Brod' aren't grown by British nurseries). Most plant material can be exchanged round Europe without problems or certificates. But if we ever eventually Brexit then I don't know what the situation will be; no one does.
Reply #7 of 37 posted 26 FEB by billy teabag
Have you seen Darlington's 1912 thoughts? 100 plants along a carriage drive?
"from BEDDING ROSES by H.R. Darlington

GRUSS AN TEPLITZ, H.T. (Geschwind, 1897)
This Rose has good and attractive foliage and a strong semi-climbing habit, growing readily into a good symmetrical, rather upright bush. It is not my ideal of a good habit for a bedding Rose. The flowers, which are produced in loose clusters, are semi-double and not well shaped, but very brilliant in the garden. The colour is normally a bright crimson, occasionally tending towards maroon. They are not well carried, and much inclined to hang their heads. They are produced in considerable quantity and very continuously, the autumn crop being specially good. The flowers are fragrant and the plants have a magnificent constitution. They are scarcely at all affected by mildew but if there is any black spot about they generally get it.
This is another Rose which I should not think of using for bedding myself, and I notice that several of my friends think it too tall for that purpose. Many, however, call it a good bedding Rose, and those who do, generally recommend that it be pegged down. Mr Page-Roberts and Mr Easlea, however, advise occasional lifting to check its growth, and the latter suggests growing it in poor soil. I have no personal experience of this Rose as a bedder, but think it should be used in a large bed to produce an effect at a distance, and that the Rose will be found at its best when grown as a large bush or as a standard. I fancy that to get the best results it should not be pruned hard, but treated rather like a Noisette Rose, encouraging young growth, keeping this rather long and cutting out as much old wood as can be spared. I have tried the starvation method, but in this garden it has not proved a success. I have seen this Rose in Lancashire, not many miles from the sea, growing as comparatively low bushes and flowering well, so possibly in the north it may be more worth trying as a bedder than in the south.
For those who wish a bed of Roses something after this colour I should myself be more inclined to recommend either Petrus Donzel, very like a dwarfer Gruss an Teplitz, or better still, Charlotte Klemm. They are both China Roses, and I should not be surprised to hear that Gruss an Teplitz had China blood in it. I have never heard of its parentage. The strong points of Gruss an Teplitz are its brilliant colour and strong constitution, perhaps also its attractive foliage. Its weakness as a bedder lies in its strong growth, dislike of close pruning, and the want of form in the flowers. The position in which Gruss an Teplitz would be most likely to prove a satisfactory bedder would be in a large bed, to hold say 100 plants, along a carriage drive, outside the garden properly so called; and I call to mind a brilliant bed of something this size which I have occasionally seen in a nursery garden when travelling by train, and have put down in my own mind as a bed of Gruss an Teplitz, but I have no personal experience of beds of this size in the garden. "
Reply #8 of 37 posted 26 FEB by Margaret Furness
Reply #9 of 37 posted 26 FEB by Marlorena
'Gruss an Teplitz' is just a fabulous rose for me here in England, I'm in East Anglia area, and I absolutely love it. The Spring foliage is luxuriant and clean until about August time, when it gets a bit of blackspot but nothing that I would regard as troublesome. I never spray, it doesn't need it... continuous bloom from mid May to whenever... maybe I'll post a photo here..
It also grows in the worst soil I have here, builders rubble, sand, dry, fit only for lavenders and cistus, but some roses will grow in anything, and this one does too.. I think I have soil somewhere down there...

You asked about ordering from Europe. I recently ordered from Fabien Ducher and it was very easy, in English, very user friendly, and extremely quick, and no more expensive than ordering locally. The bare root roses I ordered arrived by courier after just 5 days from ordering. Some nurseries are cumbersome though it has to be said. I've only used 3 of them and this was the easiest..

Sorry, I should have said this reply is to Michael Garhart's questions..
Reply #10 of 37 posted 26 FEB by Andrew from Dolton
Thank you for the information billy teabag and Marlorena, now I can't decide what to do! East Anglia gets more sun and much less rain than Devon. I can grow 'Reine des Violettes' tolerably well, I know that's a different class to 'G an T', I might try 'Gruss an Tepliz' in a pot up against the house, multiflora 'Watsoniana' can try its luck in the garden, it's such an ugly rose I don't need to see it every day, 'G an T' can take its place.

Marlorna, hope you're keeping warm, it's already -5 five here at almost 7pm.
Reply #11 of 37 posted 26 FEB by Jay-Jay
Try Roseraie du Désert in France too for inspiration:
Becky and John Hook communicate in English!
They sell quite a lot of wonderful roses (own root). And G. an T. too!!
Reply #12 of 37 posted 26 FEB by Andrew from Dolton
How are your roses Jay-Jay? Are you getting this horrid freezing dry east wind? "A wind from the east blows no good to man nor beast" and it always brings with it a black frost.
Reply #15 of 37 posted 26 FEB by Jay-Jay
I was already answering Your mail, but the reply disappeared.
Over here it's nasty cold, windy, freeze-drying and very sunny during the day. And no snow, that could act as an insulating blanket!
-10°C is predicted as night temp the oncoming days. I'm glad, that I prepared the fruittrees for this scenario.
There is some ice, but not enough or safe to skate on.
I covered the base of these roses with green conifer branches to prevent them from dying: Étoile de Portugal, Crépuscule and Lamarque.
Lots of roses were already sprouting.
Reply #13 of 37 posted 26 FEB by Marlorena
Yes Andrew, it's quite nippy here too, and some snow around. I think it might be white in the morning.

Hope you get your rose, but I've no idea about the Devon valley climate. Yes it would be drier where I am I should think.. You have some unusual roses, I've never heard of the other one...
Reply #14 of 37 posted 26 FEB by Andrew from Dolton
Jay-Jay just sent a link to a French nursery, that has a whole range of types and varieties that are different to what we can buy in the U.K. and they are grown on their own roots. Now I'm more confused than ever!
In 2015 I had a ground frost in July!
Reply #16 of 37 posted 26 FEB by Jay-Jay
Why are You confused? Or are You getting greedy, after seeing all those "foreign" beautées... or beau Thé's?
Reply #18 of 37 posted 26 FEB by Andrew from Dolton
It has lots of beauties I can only dream of growing 'Rosette Delizy, 'Fortune's Five Coloured'...
Reply #19 of 37 posted 26 FEB by Jay-Jay
Then just stick to G. an T. ... and add some suitable beauties to justify the p&p costs
Reply #17 of 37 posted 26 FEB by Marlorena
Yes I've had roses from them, nice own roots but they often take a long time to get established, and I prefer grafted. I grew some in pots for the first season, others went straight into the ground, but yes they do have a big choice, but one has to be careful because not all are suitable for rainy or cooler climates... I have at least 3 roses in the ground here that I got from them, and they're all doing really well now, but one has to be patient with own roots I have found... go for it Andrew, you know you want to..
Reply #20 of 37 posted 26 FEB by Andrew from Dolton
Ah, that's interesting I always was puzzled why in America they have so many nurseries selling ungrafted roses but in the U.K. there are, to my knowledge, none.
Reply #23 of 37 posted 26 FEB by Michael Garhart
Almost all of my roses are own-root, save for a select few.

You know us Americans. We're mouthy, like a lot of options, and fight over what is best constantly :]
Reply #21 of 37 posted 26 FEB by Jay-Jay
The time to get established depends on the rose itsself.
I had problems with some own-root directly planted in the garden, but especially Étoile de Portugal, Lamarque and Rosa banksiae normalis took off in prosperity, whilst f.i. R. banksiae lutea struggled and didn't survive.
Reply #22 of 37 posted 26 FEB by Andrew from Dolton
Modern rose planting dictates that the rose should be planted below the graft union, so all roses become own root eventually.
Reply #24 of 37 posted 26 FEB by Jay-Jay
You mean, that the union has to be buried?
How You describe it, it sounds to me like, that the union is above the soil.
But I might be wrong, for English isn't my mothers-tongue.
PS: That deeper planting didn't work for me. The budgrafted roses thrived best, when the union was about 5-8 cm below the surface. No deeper, for than the roses died or got smaller and smaller.
Reply #26 of 37 posted 26 FEB by Andrew from Dolton
Your English is correct, we are told to plant them deeply so eventually the scion grows its own roots. When I was a student in the mid 1980's it was different we were taught to plant them with the graft union well above the soil.
Reply #28 of 37 posted 26 FEB by Jay-Jay
I saw the result of the latter in combination with "gently" flailmowing Topaz Jewel.(the ones I posted photo's of in the past
The Topaz Jewel disappeared and what was left, was the rootstock. Those where culled and...
Now they planted Purple Pavement.
Yuk.(compared to Topaz Jewel)
Reply #25 of 37 posted 26 FEB by Margaret Furness
No no no - I'd only plant the bud union in the soil (or mulch) for roses that don't sucker on their own roots. So "modern roses", OK. But never Old Europeans, rugosas, spins, most species roses, which can be altogether too invasive. Some Damask Perpetuals and HPs too. Everything else I prefer on their own roots - more resilient against drought, fire, mowers. I know some HTs aren't robust enough to manage without an understock, but I grow hardly any moderns anyway.
I gather one reason for the move to own-root roses in some countries is the cost of compensation payouts to budders with back injuries.
Another for your list of English-language oddities Jay-Jay - G an' T could mean Gin and Tonic.
Reply #27 of 37 posted 26 FEB by Jay-Jay
You know Aussies: always do it their own way! ;-)
Reply #29 of 37 posted 26 FEB by Andrew from Dolton
I think suckering may be worse in warmer climates. Spinossisimas do sucker quite a lot but others like gallicas sucker mildly as does virginiana, 'Highdownensis', and cinnamomea 'Plena' but these are always welcome to sell for charity.
'Alba Maxima' suckers gently too.
Reply #30 of 37 posted 26 FEB by Margaret Furness
Yes I suppose the climate is relevant - without a harsh winter to slow them down. I don't give away suckerers on their own roots to the unwary, lest it put them off old roses.
Charles de Mills, for example, is feral in some old cemeteries here. See photo 74538. Some of us saw it naturalised on a road verge on the way to Akaroa, NZ, too.
Reply #31 of 37 posted 26 FEB by Jay-Jay
Can You post the link to that photo?
Found it?
Reply #32 of 37 posted 26 FEB by Andrew from Dolton
Wow! I've only ever seen 'Rosa Mundi' even remotely sucker like this, the stock plant I get suckers from to sell is about 1.5 metres sq. and that is a very old plant. Usually gallicas just make a clump of stems with one or two straying further away. I don't grow 'Charles de Mills' myself but I've grown it in two other gardens in the past but it never grew like the rose in the picture.

I wonder if they sucker more in dry climates because they send out underground shoots searching for moisture?
Reply #33 of 37 posted 26 FEB by Margaret Furness
Maybe so. Even where it doesn't get enough winter chill to flower, Ch de M will sucker.
There was nice patch of R gallica officinalis on a road verge too, but council workers don't differentiate between roses and blackberry, so we've lost many roadside roses.
Reply #34 of 37 posted 28 FEB by Andrew from Dolton
Of course the roses that do sucker badly are some of the rugosas. One of the few plants inherited from my previous house owners was a rugosa looking similar to 'Rubra'. It suckers like mad especially when you've dug it out and every tiny piece of root seems to sprout. It has very scented purple single flowers, (like a very feral 'Roseraie de l'Haÿ'), and sets masses of big red hips with that lovely rugosa habit of flowers and hips together. It is only allowed to grow in the wildest parts of my garden where left undisturbed it just suckers a bit. In my ex-neighbour's garden used to grow a horrid looking 'Hollandica' type rose that had once been the rootstock of a standard rose. Miserable small pale flowers it set loads of hips but even these were rather inferior to most rugosas. It suckered everywhere and really was a perfect pest, fortunately the new neighbour got landscapers in and the raised the whole garden to the ground totally eliminating any traces of it.
There is a small suckering thicket of Rosa rugosa I have seen on the beach at Worthing, (south-east U.K.), it grows in pure shingle and sand 30m or so from the sea.
Reply #35 of 37 posted 28 FEB by Andrew from Dolton
Margaret, how have these gallica roses got there? 'Officinalis' could have grown from seed but 'C de M' couldn't have. Were there dwellings there once upon a time or do Australians, like the British, have a habit of fly tipping their garden waste a long the road?
Reply #36 of 37 posted 28 FEB by Margaret Furness
I think they must have been planted intentionally long ago, either spreading from a garden, or in an attempt to beautify the road verge. Or maybe a road was pushed through where a garden used to be. We have quite a few roadside ramblers in the Adelaide Hills; more resistant to herbicides. I think if it was dumping of rubbish, we'd have a lot more roadside geraniums, which do strike that easily in this climate.
Yes dumping of rubbish happens, but now it's mainly related to things that are illegal or expensive to take to council rubbish tips.
Reply #37 of 37 posted 10 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
I decided 'Gruss an Teplitz' was too risky and have just ordered 'Zigeunerknabe', 'Gentiliana' and 'Gardenia' instead.
most recent 12 days ago SHOW ALL
Initial post 30 SEP 16 by Patricia Routley
I think I must have a wrongly named rose because my own-root bush (provenance Ruth Jones in 2001) looks a one metre high hybrid tea. I put it in a bed for tea roses and it cowers down like a sore...little finger. Nothing at all tea-like about my bush and I am wondering if it was the form of the bloom which suggested the class of Tea.
Reply #1 of 7 posted 2 MAR by HubertG
Did you happen to get your Mrs. Foley Hobbs ultimately via Ruth from Ross Roses?
Years ago I ordered a "White Dr Grill" from Ross roses which they said had come from Sangerhausen. It seemed to be bush of Mrs.Foley Hobbs. Although it was a small bush it did put out vigorous shoots, superb large flowers, quite free-flowering and superbly scented. I really liked it. I later lost it (too much shade) and when I rang Ross's to replace it they said they had gotten rid of their "White Dr Grill". So I ordered Mrs Foley Hobbs from them instead. It seemed identical in every way but the growth was very weak, the flowers small and malformed and I was very disappointed in it. Otherwise the leaves, fragrance, thorniness were all the same. It just seemed to be weak, inferior version of the same plant. I got rid of it. I really wished I had saved my "White Dr Grill".
I wonder if there is just a weak clone of this rose out there?
Reply #2 of 7 posted 2 MAR by Patricia Routley
In one of my photos of 'Mrs. Foley Hobbs I have said "Provenance apparently was Sangerhausen-1; Rumsey-2; Ruston-3; Ruth Jones-4;. Planted in 2001." Mine is on its own roots, and came from a Heritage Roses in Australia member, Ruth Jones, near Perth.
I need to propagate mine as I only have one plant. However, age is enforcing the end of my propagating days I think. If ever I succeed with more than one cutting I will send you one (but don't hold your breath). My own-root bush on acid loam is small, and interestingly, Hillary Merrifield on alkaline sand (and likely to be in Fortuniana) says hers is almost a climber. Tea Roses. Old Roses for Warm Gardens has a superb couple of pages on 'Mrs. Foley-Hobbs'.
Reply #3 of 7 posted 2 MAR by HubertG
Thanks. I must get the book. For what it's worth I've posted a couple of old photos of my old "White Dr Grill" under MrsFH. It's hard to believe that this rose could nearly make a climber. Perhaps its vigour is very particular to the stock it's on. The early descriptions do praise its vigour.
Reply #4 of 7 posted 2 MAR by Margaret Furness
The Renmark notes say: Rose sold in Aus as White Dr Grill: see Mrs Foley Hobbs.
The first Mrs Foley Hobbs in the HRIAI collection at Renmark, from a different nursery, turned out to be virused. We planted one from Ross Roses last winter but it's too early to comment on its growth.
I hope I have a young cutting-grown Mrs FH from David's 30-year-old Tea rows, which were demolished last year, but am not sure of the ID yet. The parent plant was halfway between two labels.
Reply #5 of 7 posted 2 MAR by HubertG
I hope that the MrsFH from Ross's turn out to be a lot more vigorous than the one I had.
Reply #6 of 7 posted 12 days ago by billy teabag
Are your roses dense with prickles? Do those prickly flower stems curve to look at the ground like the man with the muck rake as Lt Commander PRIDEAUX wrote in 1949? Do you end up with blood leaking out of your arms every time you go near the thing to trim or tidy?
If yes, you probably do have 'Mrs Foley Hobbs'. Its growth habit is what I think of as on the cusp on HT and Tea - a more definite structure of branches.
Tall plants are almost always quite old plants that have been left to their own devices for a couple of years, during which time they've used those wicked hooks and curves to grab their neighbours and stretch towards the sun.
Mine was runty for its first years but when it got to about 10 years old it did as described above and pushed upwards.
The 'Mrs Foley Hobbs' in commerce today originated in Sangerhausen. To confuse matters, budwood of same rose was received in a different consignment from Sangerhausen labelled 'Dr Grill' and Ross Roses sold it for a time as "White Dr Grill". To further confuse matters, budwood of 'William R. Smith' was also received in a consignment from Sangerhausen labelled 'Dr Grill'. (Sadly, the real 'Dr Grill' doesn't seem to have been a part of any consignment.)
If you're interested in the various 'received as' es we got to the bottom of while researching the Tea rose book, they are mentioned in the individual entries and are summarised in the last (2007) column of Appendix IV (pp210 -218) of Tea Roses, Old roses for warm gardens. While this information is specific to Australia, many of these errors are the same world-wide, because the distribution of heritage roses was in the hands of just a few nurserymen and enthusiasts in the early days of the revival of interest in heritage roses.
Reply #7 of 7 posted 12 days ago by HubertG
Both of mine had lots of big thorns but the vigour between the two was apparent from the initial planting. The only other difference I remember (I have neither bush now) was that the "White Dr Grill" had a habit of throwing out shoots at odd angles giving it a somewhat contorted 'wavy' branch structure. Because they were from the same nursery I assume the same root stock was used. They looked like the same rose in every other respect, perhaps the budwood had been taken off different parts of the mother plant.
It did look like a Tea-Hybrid Tea blend to me. The foliage was rather dark green which always looked nice against the cream flowers, and the leaf edges were wavy.
most recent 26 FEB HIDE POSTS
Initial post 26 FEB by Patricia Routley
Would those who grow "Whatley Crescent" please check the references for 'Southport' 1930.
Reply #1 of 2 posted 26 FEB by billy teabag
I see what you mean Patricia. At last a rose with around the right number of petals.
The only thing I can find that doesn't fit is the suggestion that it is a fairly prickly plant (Dawson's nursery catalogue "inclined to be thorny.")
From my quick run through the refs, this is the only complaint I've spotted about prickles and apart from "red spines" in an early ref., the prickles don't get a mention.
References to fragrance are variable. If "Whatley Crescent" is 'Southport', that would fit as sometimes it has quite a strong fragrance and other times you have to work hard to find much.
I wish there was a patent document for this rose with a detailed description we could get our teeth into.
Reply #2 of 2 posted 26 FEB by Patricia Routley
The 1944 p43 reference also talks of thorns. But I recall Karl, years ago, talking of how a rose bush can change its ability to produce thorns, or not. There is also the height - 'Southport' started off life taller than it seemed to end up. I never really checked the books on my bookshelf, so there may be more available, but I will leave it with you. My plant of "Whatley Crescent" is too small to show its true characteristics and I want to explore more 'President Macia' 1933 for "Birte Venske's No. 13" in my next bit of free time.
most recent 18 FEB HIDE POSTS
Initial post 17 FEB by HubertG
My huge bush is very prickly. I'm not sure why it is described as being thornless or nearly so.
Reply #1 of 2 posted 17 FEB by billy teabag
You are right! It is definitely well-armed.
Reply #2 of 2 posted 18 FEB by Patricia Routley
Probably because of the 1936 reference which said " few thick prickles".
Armature now corrected. Thanks to you both.
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