HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
billy teabag
most recent 26 JUL SHOW ALL
Initial post 28 APR by HubertG
It seems to be more of a bush Tea to me, rather than a climber or Noisette.
Reply #1 of 3 posted 28 APR by billy teabag
How does this rose compare with your Dr Grill HubertG?
Reply #2 of 3 posted 28 APR by HubertG
It's definitely not the same. Juani appears to be semi-double, or a bit more than this, and the petals seem to 'star' a bit.
Reply #3 of 3 posted 26 JUL by HubertG
"Juani" matches the descriptions of 'Duchesse Marie Salviati' to some degree with the long buds and the chrome orange/yellow with peach shadings. It was more popular apparently in continental Europe than in Britain so possibly could have become popular in Argentina. Soupert & Notting were also the official royal suppliers to Brazil back then, so maybe it could have made its way south from Brazil. However, Duchesse Marie Salviati' had a distinct violet scent, so if Juani doesn't have a violet scent, I'm sure that would rule it out.
Just something to consider.
most recent 26 JUL SHOW ALL
Initial post 12 APR 09 by billy teabag
I have heard reports of plants of 'Lady Hillingdon' labelled 'Lady Plymouth', and this photo looks like 'Lady Hillingdon'.
Reply #1 of 6 posted 12 APR 09 by jedmar
Can be. A lot of Teas at Sangerhausen are mislabeled. We need a picture of the real 'Lady Plymouth' to compare.
Reply #2 of 6 posted 13 APR 09 by billy teabag
Wish I had one to share but so far no joy in that quest.
Reply #3 of 6 posted 13 APR 09 by billy teabag
Is there a photo with the description in the 1920 Edition of Captain Thomas's book 'The Practical Book of Outdoor Rose Growing'?
I have the 4th edition but Lady Plymouth isn't in that one.
Reply #4 of 6 posted 14 APR 09 by Cass
No photo, Billy. The 1920 edition is on google books.
Reply #5 of 6 posted 15 APR 09 by billy teabag
Thanks Cass
Reply #6 of 6 posted 26 JUL by HubertG
I just uploaded an old photograph of 'Lady Plymouth' for comparison. The form looks like the other photograph here, although the colour doesn't really match early descriptions.
most recent 20 JUL SHOW ALL
Initial post 2 JUL by Patricia Routley
Virginia, is it possible for you [or someone else] to add translations of the early 'Mme. Berard' references please?
Reply #1 of 13 posted 2 JUL by HubertG
There's an interesting passage in the Rosen-Zeitung where someone writes in asking how to tell Gloire de Dijon and Mme. Berard apart, and the answer gives some interesting details. I'll post and translate that one later. It might be helpful. Very many of the other references in Rosen-Zeitung comment on how good a seed bearer Mme. Berard is, although this is perhaps no surprise given the number of its offspring.
Reply #2 of 13 posted 2 JUL by billy teabag
"Rose in Commerce as Adam / almost certainly Mme Bérard" is a prodigious seed bearer. It is one of those roses that produces a hip for practically every flower, and if not dead-headed, the plant puts all its energy into making hips and seeds and becomes weak and disease prone.
David Ruston mentioned 'Great Western' as another example of a rose that needs to be rescued from its extreme fertility.
Reply #3 of 13 posted 3 JUL by HubertG
From the Rosen-Zeitung 1898, pages83-84

... b) Welche deutlichen Erkennungszeichen hat man, um die beiden Rosen Gloire de Dijon und Madame Bérard zu unterschieden?

... Antwort auf Frage b. Die beiden genannten Rosen sind ebenso verschieden, wie etwa eine Souvenir de la Malmaison von einer Captain Christy verschieden ist. Vor allem verschieden sind die Blüten. Gloire de Dijon ist bedeutend heller; sie ist weiss und gelb, M. Bérard ist gelb und kupfrig. Gloire de Dijon öffnet sich leicht ganz und zeigt dann Wirrbau; Mad. Bérard öffnet sich nie ganz und zeigt nie Wirrbau; Aber auch andere Unterschiede sind auffallend. Gloire de Dijon ist reich, Mad. Bérard spärlich bestachelt. Gloire de Dijon blüht an langen, entspitzten Trieben an fast allen Augen; MB fast immer nur an den entständigen. Gl. de Dijon hat eine dicke, rundliche Knospe; M.B. eine mehr langliche. Gloire de Dijon gehört zu denjenigen Theerosen, deren reifes Holz - wie das des M. Niel - sehr hart und spröde ist; M. Bérard gehört zu denen, die sehr weiches Holz haben. Diese Unterschied ist, wenn mann beide Sorte nach einander okuliert, äusserst auffallend. Endlich hat M. Bérard durchaus dunkleres und reiches Laub als G. de Dijon. Aber schön sind beide."

My translation:

Question Box
b) What clear signs are there to recognise the difference between the roses Gloire de Dijon and Madame Berard?

... Answer to question b. Both the mentioned roses differ in much the same way in which a Souvenir de la Malmaison is different from a Captain Christy. Above all, the blooms are different. Gloire de Dijon is significantly lighter; it is white with yellow, M. Berard is yellow and coppery. Gloire de Dijon opens completely easily and then shows a confused construction; Mad. Berard never completely opens and never shows a confused construction; But other differences are also noticeable. Gloire de Dijon is richly and Mad. Berard is sparsely prickled. Gloire de Dijon flowers on long tip-pruned shoots from almost all eyes; M B almost always only on the teminals. Gl. de Dijon has a thick roundish bud; M.B. a more elongated one. Gloire de Dijon belongs to those Tea Roses whose mature wood - like that of M. Niel - is very hard and brittle; M. Berard belongs to those which have very soft wood. This difference is extremely noticeable when one buds both varieties one after the other. Finally, M Berard has thoroughly darker and richer foliage than Gloire de Dijon. Both, however, are beautiful.
Reply #4 of 13 posted 4 JUL by HubertG
Translation of the above is now added.
I should comment that "Wirrbau" is rather hard to translate so that the original intended meaning is conveyed. It literally means confused or muddled construction or build. However it doesn't seem to be a word that is normally reserved specifically for roses because it doesn't appear anywhere else in all the Rosen-Zeitung publications. It seems to most be commonly used for when bees start building a hive in an irregular way. In any case, I've left it as "confused construction" because that can cover a good deal.
I wonder if the writer means a twisted rosette eye once the flowers expand. Anyway, it is an interesting and hopefully helpful reference.
Reply #5 of 13 posted 4 JUL by billy teabag
Many thanks for this HubertG. There's a lot of very useful detail in that reference.
I ran the original through Google translate late last night and though it did a reasonably good job, it didn't even attempt "Wirrbau".
If we can safely conclude that the roses grow similarly enough in temperate Australia and wherever these observations were made (are there any hints about the location?), then reading the descriptions of growth habit and where the blooms tend to appear, "Not Adam" is more like 'Gloire de Dijon' and 'Mme Berard' sounds closer in growth habit to roses like 'Reve d'Or'.
I'm less certain that "Not Adam" is 'Mme Berard' after reading this.
Reply #6 of 13 posted 4 JUL by HubertG
Billy, you're welcome. I'll check later for clues on the writer's location. There are lots of Mme Berard references on Rosen-Zeitung. That one was probably the most interesting, but I can post more. I haven't grown either rose so can't comment but the photos I've seen over the years of Gloire de Dijon do give the impression of it having a muddled or 'wirr' form.
Reply #7 of 13 posted 4 JUL by Patricia Routley
Reference added.
Reply #8 of 13 posted 4 JUL by HubertG
The writer was "O.S. in L.". This must be Otto Schultze who was a contributor to the Rosen-Zeitung, but so far I haven't been able to determine the location "L."

This might be useful. From the Rosen-Zeitung 1894 page 7:
"Mad. Moreau ist in allen Eigenschaften mit Mad. Bérard identisch, das Lachsgelb der Blüte ist jedoch viel kräftiger als bei Mad. Bérard. Mad. Moreau erscheint farbenglänzender als letztere."

Mad. Moreau is in all characteristics identical to Mad. Berard, the salmon-yellow of the flower is however much stronger than Mad. Berard. Mad. Moreau comes more brightly coloured than the latter."

And from page 19 of 1894:

"Mme Bérard, besonders reich im Herbst blühend."

Mme Berard, especially abundantly blooming in autumn.
Reply #9 of 13 posted 5 JUL by Patricia Routley
Thanks again HubertG. Reference added
Reply #10 of 13 posted 18 JUL by HubertG
Has anyone considered Mme Chauvry (from Bonnaire) as a possible identity for the Australian presumed Mme Berard? It was Mme Berard x W A Richardson.
Superficially it fits the bill and was a profuse hip bearer, but I haven't looked into it enough to find any minutiae which might rule it out. Just throwing it out there.
Reply #11 of 13 posted 18 JUL by Margaret Furness
It would be helpful if anyone who grows Mme Chauvry, or has seen it growing, would post photos with ID-type details, and state the provenance of their rose please.
Reply #12 of 13 posted 20 JUL by HubertG
'Mme Moreau' (1889 Moreau-Robert) might be another one to consider for the Australian Mme Berard.
It was Mme Falcot x Mme Berard and was thornless or nearly so.
Reply #13 of 13 posted 20 JUL by Marlorena
There is also a 'Madame Simon', a seedling of 'Mme Berard' which is so similar, that I wonder if I grew this rose instead when I had it as 'Mme Berard'... incidentally Beales no longer offer it under the 'Mme Berard' name, only 'Adam'... looks like the same rose to me... but the sole photo of 'Madame Simon' on HMF looks more like the rose I had... and from reading the references it conforms to all that's said about it.... but I suppose I'll never know for sure..
most recent 10 JUL SHOW ALL
Initial post 28 SEP 14 by CybeRose
Gardening Illustrated 6: 330 (Sept 13, 1884)
Tea Rose Adam.—This is one of the most useful Roses in cultivation, and I venture to say that some of these days it will stand in the front rank of Roses grown more for the continuous supply of buds and flowers which they yield than for the decorative effect which they are capable of affording. My first acquaintance with this Rose was made on the Continent some years ago, where, in a large establishment, the back wall of a Camellia house was devoted to Tea Roses, amongst which were some plants of Adam. All the kinds planted there did well, and gave a large amount of bloom, but there were periods when they were out of bloom with the exception of Adam, which always furnished a bud or two in times of need, and often caused the remark to be made that it was worth all the other varieties put together. It is, however, only fair to say that that favourite of the market growers, Niphetos, did not have a place there; but although Adam scarcely ranks so high as that popular kind, it comes next to it, and the two should always be found in company, forming, as they do, a good contrast as regards colour. I cannot think of two better kinds for a small greenhouse than these two Teas, and I am sure amateurs would find them more satisfactory than Maréchal Niel, which, glorious Rose though it is, is not so well fitted for small houses, and its flowering season is far too short for those who like to cut a Rose every few days through the spring, summer, and autumn months. Speaking of Tea Roses the other day to a friend, a large rower of them, he confirmed my good opinion of Adam, but considers it to be quite distinct from President. This is a matter of some importance, and a point which should be cleared up, as if there are two distinct Roses under the same name, it may be that the true Adam is often not obtainable, and that some disappointment may be the result, that is supposing the two kinds not to be equal in general good properties. What is the opinion of Rose growers in reference to this matter?
Reply #1 of 4 posted 9 JUL by billy teabag
Did you ever find any answers to this query in later editions?
Reply #2 of 4 posted 9 JUL by CybeRose
No. And apparently the author (J Cornhill) did not, either. I find that the same letter was previously published in The Garden 24: 259 (Sept 20, 1883).
Reply #3 of 4 posted 9 JUL by Patricia Routley
I wonder if either of you would like to add this reference.
Reply #4 of 4 posted 10 JUL by billy teabag
Yes - done.
Also added this 1861 'President' ref from Thomas Moore's The Floral Magazine Vol 1, which accompanies a portrait of 'President'.
"This beautiful Rose is of American origin, and was introduced to the public last year through Mr. William Paul, of the Cheshunt Nurseries, Waltham Cross, by whom some magnificent specimens were furnished for our drawing in the course of the past summer. We can only regret that our limited page by no means does justice to the admirably cultivated examples furnished by our friend.
The 'President' rose has been exhibited before the chief metropolitan authorities, and has borne away the honours of a first-class certificate from the Royal Botanic Society, and from the Floral Committee of the Horticultural Society. The beautiful blossoms produced by the plants exhibited on the occasions referred to, well entitled it to such distinction.
We learn from Mr. Paul that the plant is of free growth and of a hardy character, being, in regard to habit and constitution, very similar to the variety called 'Caroline' which was one of its parents. Its wood is of a firm and rather wiry character, and its foliage bold and healthy-looking, while the flowers, which are globular in form, are large, full of firm smooth petals, and very sweet. The color is blush, tinged in the younger stages with salmony-buff, as shown in our figure, but in the older stages the latter tint more or less passes away. Mr. Paul describes the colours as fawn and salmon, varying somewhat according to the season at which it blooms. The plants bloom freely and force well. The variety is no doubt a decided acquisition to the group to which it belongs, and will take rank among the very best sorts. It resembles the Tea-scented kind called 'Adam', more nearly than any other rose, but is hardier in constitution, and sufficiently distinct to entitle it to general cultivation. If cultivated out of doors the flowers are given forth at short intervals from July to November."
Would you like me to upload the old portraits of 'President' here in the 'Adam' entry, or would you prefer to have a separate entry for 'President'?
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