HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
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most recent 30 MAY SHOW ALL
Initial post 4 JUN 15 by AquaEyes
I happened upon this found Tea via the facebook page for "Roses Anciennes -- Vintage Roses", which seems to bear some resemblance to another found rose here in the US. Please compare to "Thomasville Old Told". Thoughts?


Reply #1 of 7 posted 4 AUG 15 by kai-eric
so many varieties can look similar. unfortunally, we are lacking better pictures and detailled descriptions of this one.
Reply #2 of 7 posted 4 AUG 15 by AquaEyes
On an antique roses forum, this thread was posted about an unidentified rose in Spain. The found rose "Isabella Ducrot" was also mentioned as a possibility. It would be very interesting to compare the various "sunset-colored" Teas like these, and 'Clementina Carbonieri', and 'Isabella Nabonnand', etc. I'd wager that there's a duplicate somewhere among them.


Reply #4 of 7 posted 27 MAY by AmiRoses
I have both "Isabella Ducrot" and "Plaisance Pink", they are different. "Isabella Ducrot" is much more changing.
Reply #5 of 7 posted 28 MAY by Patricia Routley
Thanks AmiRoses. I have added your notes to the main pages for the roses.
Reply #3 of 7 posted 27 MAY by AmiRoses
"Thomasville Old Gold" flower is much bigger
Reply #6 of 7 posted 29 MAY by HubertG
Does 'Luciole' from 1886 sound like it could be a possibility? 'Luciole' was described as having a strong fragrance. Does "Plaisance Pink" have a good fragrance?
Reply #7 of 7 posted 30 MAY by HubertG
This is also an interesting reference to 'Luciole' - "flower stem roughened like a moss-rose; "- from the 1888 Hill & co catalogue, considering that the photo (ID 317246) of "Plaisance Pink" shows a rather hispid stem.
most recent 17 MAY HIDE POSTS
Initial post 15 MAY by Gartenjockels kleine gaerten
where did this plant come from?
Reply #1 of 1 posted 17 MAY by Patricia Routley
Re: Madame Jules Gravereaux rose photo courtesy of Kerusten.
I don't think we will ever know that Gartenjockels kleine gaerten. We no longer have a listing for a member called Kerusten.
most recent 28 APR SHOW ALL
Initial post 28 JUL 15 by kai-eric
for a better understanding of socrate's appearance please try to have a look to the 'komlosy chromolithographs' of old roses published by late bob edberg. can anyone help us out?
Reply #1 of 3 posted 28 JUL 15 by Patricia Routley
I saved this when Mr. Edberg sent a couple of the Komlosy plates as a flyer for his publication, but it has COPYRIGHT LIMBERLOST ROSES 2010 stamped all over it. The picture is quite apricot-looking but I am unable to enlarge it to see more details. Certainly does not look like what I remember of "David's Dilemma".
Reply #2 of 3 posted 28 APR by HubertG
From the Rosen-Zeitung 1892, page 79: Under the heading Favourite Roses, by Ketten Bros, Luxembourg.

"Lieblingsrosen ...

Socrate (Moreau-Robert, 1859): Blume dunkelrosa, Centrum aprikosenfarbig;"

My translation:
Favourite Roses ...
Socrate (Moreau-Robert, 1859): Flower dark pink, centre apricot-coloured.
Reply #3 of 3 posted 28 APR by Patricia Routley
Thanks HubertG. Reference added.
most recent 26 MAR SHOW ALL
Initial post 24 JUN 08 by Jocelen
In 1914 the breeders of this rose sent the following description to the 'Journal des Roses':

"Arbuste très florifère et vigoureux, fleur de jolie forme, rose violace clair; bouton allongé d'un superbe coloris nankin-rougeâtre luisant; pétales extérieurs nuancés de rose violace à onglet jaune safran."
A purplish light pink flower, elongated bud of a superb nankin-red colour, shiny; outside petals purplish pink with a saffron yellow base.

In my opinion this is challenging the 'Clementina Carbonieri' as we know it today, which is, I think, probably wrongly identified.
Reply #1 of 5 posted 29 JUN 08 by Unregistered Guest
In our climate C.C . is a mix of colors--pink, red, orange and yellow. No hint even of purple. Our plant, incidentally , is from Italy, where it was bred. If what we have is an impostor, wonder what it could be?
Reply #2 of 5 posted 22 OCT 08 by Maurizio Usai
I wonder if our "Clementina" could be, in fact, the same rose we know as 'Isabelle Nabonnand', a rose largely grown in the Riviera as "Nonna Censy"...

Does anyone have any opinion about....?
Reply #3 of 5 posted 18 NOV 08 by Gartenjockels kleine gaerten
hello maurizio.

clementina carbonieri, isabelle nabonnand and even souvenir de gilbert nabonnand are very similar, indeed.
i received them from different sources: cc/beales, in/ loubert, sdgn/frenchtearoses. they showed same bloomcolours all over the season, getting darker and of a more vivid red shading in hotter times.
the leaves also shared the same characteristics: elongated elliptical, prominent tip, coarse and wide serrations, margins slightly ondulated, impressed second veins, of medium stoutness.
contemporary descriptions told the blossoms being semidouble which surely doesn't match the plants in question.
so what...? no idea which of the three it is.
for further observations, especially for bud, receptacle and pedicel, i must attend new season.
best wishes
kai-eric schwarz
Reply #4 of 5 posted 26 APR 12 by Organic Roses-Honeybee Garden
Hmmm, what I think happened is a translation subtlety. Violace can actually mean an intense mauve pink and it could also refer to how Clementina starts out as an open bud. Indeed mine is a very hot neon mauve violet-pink if this makes sense. Mine is not red, but hot mauve.

My Clementina Carbonieri is very young but I noticed all the photos of it on HMF show a very short, stubby plant. HMF photos and my specific plant also show a far more sparse and outwardly branching habit (like the forking of a tree branch) Isabelle Nabonnand on the other hand, show a much taller, far more bushier plant on HMF. However, both have the same snaking bloom neck, same leaf shape, so perhaps they must somehow be related. Often this seems to happen with a lot of hybridizers when their rose picks up the same characteristics of the dominant parent and they are working within the same strain of plant.... Example, there are countless pink and cream striped roses constantly being developed that it's sometimes hard to tell one from another....

Finally I noticed that HMF photos consistently show Clementina as having very small flowers, whereas with Isabelle, often the blooms are significantly larger by comparison.

The final clue, I took a look at Souvenir de Gilbert Nabonnand and I'm thinking noooo way! Souvenir de Gilbert Nabonnand is MASSIVE from the photos on HMF. (Ref link: ) The base of the rose is like tree trunks lol! and the canes exceptionally stout. The flowers are even more enlarged in size...Maybe what happened is the originating plant was Clementina, then others started to refine it for a larger bush size to Isabelle and finally Souvenir d.G. Nabonnand was bred so that it would serve better as large hedge or "shrub" rose.....???? Again these are just wild guesses on my part. But IMHO, Souvenire de Gilbert Nabonnand's is unlike both Clementina Carbonieri and Isabelle Nabonnand in terms of just the size and the growth habit.
Reply #5 of 5 posted 26 MAR by WarGar
My Clementina Carbonieri sprawls quite a bit and throws longish canes. I thought that was due to it being planted on the east side of my house (morning sun only) and for several years shaded additionally by a large hydrangea, since removed. I have avoiding pruning it severely due to my understanding that Teas dislike hard pruning. Perhaps it is time to attempt to tame it! My General Gallieni, nearby, is being swamped by the older (in terms of when it was planted in my garden) Clementina Carbonieri. Flowers of CC look as portrayed most commonly in photos, so either it's CC or something similar.
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