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most recent 17 MAY HIDE POSTS
Initial post 15 MAY by Gartenjockels kleine gaerten
where did this plant come from?
Reply #1 of 1 posted 17 MAY by Patricia Routley
Re: Madame Jules Gravereaux rose photo courtesy of Kerusten.
I don't think we will ever know that Gartenjockels kleine gaerten. We no longer have a listing for a member called Kerusten.
most recent 28 APR SHOW ALL
Initial post 28 JUL 15 by kai-eric
for a better understanding of socrate's appearance please try to have a look to the 'komlosy chromolithographs' of old roses published by late bob edberg. can anyone help us out?
Reply #1 of 3 posted 28 JUL 15 by Patricia Routley
I saved this when Mr. Edberg sent a couple of the Komlosy plates as a flyer for his publication, but it has COPYRIGHT LIMBERLOST ROSES 2010 stamped all over it. The picture is quite apricot-looking but I am unable to enlarge it to see more details. Certainly does not look like what I remember of "David's Dilemma".
Reply #2 of 3 posted 28 APR by HubertG
From the Rosen-Zeitung 1892, page 79: Under the heading Favourite Roses, by Ketten Bros, Luxembourg.

"Lieblingsrosen ...

Socrate (Moreau-Robert, 1859): Blume dunkelrosa, Centrum aprikosenfarbig;"

My translation:
Favourite Roses ...
Socrate (Moreau-Robert, 1859): Flower dark pink, centre apricot-coloured.
Reply #3 of 3 posted 28 APR by Patricia Routley
Thanks HubertG. Reference added.
most recent 26 MAR SHOW ALL
Initial post 24 JUN 08 by Jocelen
In 1914 the breeders of this rose sent the following description to the 'Journal des Roses':

"Arbuste très florifère et vigoureux, fleur de jolie forme, rose violace clair; bouton allongé d'un superbe coloris nankin-rougeâtre luisant; pétales extérieurs nuancés de rose violace à onglet jaune safran."
A purplish light pink flower, elongated bud of a superb nankin-red colour, shiny; outside petals purplish pink with a saffron yellow base.

In my opinion this is challenging the 'Clementina Carbonieri' as we know it today, which is, I think, probably wrongly identified.
Reply #1 of 5 posted 29 JUN 08 by Unregistered Guest
In our climate C.C . is a mix of colors--pink, red, orange and yellow. No hint even of purple. Our plant, incidentally , is from Italy, where it was bred. If what we have is an impostor, wonder what it could be?
Reply #2 of 5 posted 22 OCT 08 by Maurizio Usai
I wonder if our "Clementina" could be, in fact, the same rose we know as 'Isabelle Nabonnand', a rose largely grown in the Riviera as "Nonna Censy"...

Does anyone have any opinion about....?
Reply #3 of 5 posted 18 NOV 08 by Gartenjockels kleine gaerten
hello maurizio.

clementina carbonieri, isabelle nabonnand and even souvenir de gilbert nabonnand are very similar, indeed.
i received them from different sources: cc/beales, in/ loubert, sdgn/frenchtearoses. they showed same bloomcolours all over the season, getting darker and of a more vivid red shading in hotter times.
the leaves also shared the same characteristics: elongated elliptical, prominent tip, coarse and wide serrations, margins slightly ondulated, impressed second veins, of medium stoutness.
contemporary descriptions told the blossoms being semidouble which surely doesn't match the plants in question.
so what...? no idea which of the three it is.
for further observations, especially for bud, receptacle and pedicel, i must attend new season.
best wishes
kai-eric schwarz
Reply #4 of 5 posted 26 APR 12 by Organic Roses-Honeybee Garden
Hmmm, what I think happened is a translation subtlety. Violace can actually mean an intense mauve pink and it could also refer to how Clementina starts out as an open bud. Indeed mine is a very hot neon mauve violet-pink if this makes sense. Mine is not red, but hot mauve.

My Clementina Carbonieri is very young but I noticed all the photos of it on HMF show a very short, stubby plant. HMF photos and my specific plant also show a far more sparse and outwardly branching habit (like the forking of a tree branch) Isabelle Nabonnand on the other hand, show a much taller, far more bushier plant on HMF. However, both have the same snaking bloom neck, same leaf shape, so perhaps they must somehow be related. Often this seems to happen with a lot of hybridizers when their rose picks up the same characteristics of the dominant parent and they are working within the same strain of plant.... Example, there are countless pink and cream striped roses constantly being developed that it's sometimes hard to tell one from another....

Finally I noticed that HMF photos consistently show Clementina as having very small flowers, whereas with Isabelle, often the blooms are significantly larger by comparison.

The final clue, I took a look at Souvenir de Gilbert Nabonnand and I'm thinking noooo way! Souvenir de Gilbert Nabonnand is MASSIVE from the photos on HMF. (Ref link: ) The base of the rose is like tree trunks lol! and the canes exceptionally stout. The flowers are even more enlarged in size...Maybe what happened is the originating plant was Clementina, then others started to refine it for a larger bush size to Isabelle and finally Souvenir d.G. Nabonnand was bred so that it would serve better as large hedge or "shrub" rose.....???? Again these are just wild guesses on my part. But IMHO, Souvenire de Gilbert Nabonnand's is unlike both Clementina Carbonieri and Isabelle Nabonnand in terms of just the size and the growth habit.
Reply #5 of 5 posted 26 MAR by WarGar
My Clementina Carbonieri sprawls quite a bit and throws longish canes. I thought that was due to it being planted on the east side of my house (morning sun only) and for several years shaded additionally by a large hydrangea, since removed. I have avoiding pruning it severely due to my understanding that Teas dislike hard pruning. Perhaps it is time to attempt to tame it! My General Gallieni, nearby, is being swamped by the older (in terms of when it was planted in my garden) Clementina Carbonieri. Flowers of CC look as portrayed most commonly in photos, so either it's CC or something similar.
most recent 27 JUL 17 SHOW ALL
Initial post 10 JUL 15 by scvirginia
I would like to see it grown side by side with 'Le Pactole' since there are some similarities.

The pink and yellow tones to the flowers and buds make me want to see it grown next to 'Devoniensis', one of the Teas that supposedly has a sweet fragrance...

I also wonder if it could be the same as the Bermuda Mystery Rose "Brightside Cream"? It would make sense if some/many/all of the Bermuda roses might have also made it to Oz and other parts of the British Empire with warmer climes.
Reply #1 of 22 posted 11 JUL 15 by Patricia Routley
From old private correspondence on "Yallum Park Cream", it would appear to be a much larger bush than 'Le Pactole'. I've put 'Le Pactole' in the rejections box, but added "Brightside Cream" and "San Felipe Noisette" to the possibles box. Hopefully people who have the Bermuda rose, or who have seen it, will contribute.

I know I saw a definite difference between "Yallum Park Cream" and 'Devoniensis' last season but probably did not have my little notebook with the pencil attached with string, in my pocket. This will have to wait until next spring for me to reply. Perhaps the people who found "Yallum Park Cream" might contribute more before then.
Reply #2 of 22 posted 12 JUL 15 by Margaret Furness
My post from yesterday has fallen into the ether...
If Le Pactole is still in Australia, it has lost its name, and I'm not aware of "Yallum Park Cream" reaching Europe; so no chance at present of growing them together.
YPC has a Noisette or Tea-Noisette feel to it, with clusters of flowers and a sweet scent. The nearest, I think, is Lamarque. YPC is a much more vigorous plant than the bush form of Devoniensis.
Reply #3 of 22 posted 12 JUL 15 by Patricia Routley
After reading the references for 'Le Pactole', are you happy with putting 'Le Pactole' in the rejections box for "Yallum Park Cream" Margaret?
Reply #4 of 22 posted 12 JUL 15 by scvirginia
Le Pactole is- from what I've read and from my own experience- a bit slow to get started, but there are a couple of photos at its HMF record in which it looks pretty large.

In a thread at the Antique Roses Forum, Jeri Jennings said that her 'Le Pactole' was about 5'tall and 6'wide (about 1.5m x 1.8m), but she had seen one at the Sacramento City Cemetery that was- and I quote- "BIGGER".

To my inexperienced eyes, "Brightside Cream" looks like it's from the same club, and it has been called a Noisette.

I looked at some of the older references for 'Le Pactole' , and was intrigued to read Buist's speculation that 'LP' must be a child of 'Lamarque' and The Yellow Tea ('Smith's Yellow'?).

Reply #5 of 22 posted 12 JUL 15 by Margaret Furness
Le Pactole: "pale sulphur, approaching to a bright yellow in the centre of the flower". I don't think YPC is yellow enough for that, but most of the photos of Le Pactole on hmf aren't, either.
Reply #6 of 22 posted 13 JUL 15 by scvirginia
No, bright yellow was either an exaggeration, or meant something less, well 'bright', than what we mean. But some of the photos of 'Le Pactole' suggest a luminosity that I thought I also saw in photos of "Yallum Park Cream". Now, I'm not sure that I did?

I asked about size of 'LP' on the Antique Roses Forum, and someone in Northern California wrote that her 'Le Pactole' is 7-8 years old, and is about 6.5' tall and 10' wide "and still growing". I suspect it would be pretty large in at least some Australian gardens also.

I did a brief online search about Yallum Park, and learned that the man who built the mansion there made his money selling food to gold prospectors. It would be a good fit if "Yallum Park Cream" turned out to be 'Le Pactole' since the name means 'gold mine'...

Reply #7 of 22 posted 13 JUL 15 by Margaret Furness
Some of the Tealadies (book authors) did some more study at Renmark recently, but feel that more work is needed before offering an ID for some of our foundlings.
As you say, the early references for Le Pactole may be misleading advertising; another possibility is that the rose in commerce under that name is incorrect. I could not call the "Yallum Park Cream" yellow.
Yallum Park is a wonderful 19th century mansion in decline, still in private ownership. It has 53 different William Morris wallpapers, said to be more than in any other house in the world. The Victorians were capable of living with eight or more different wallpapers in the same room...
Reply #8 of 22 posted 13 JUL 15 by Ozoldroser
Doing a quick computer search of old Australian rose Catalogues in my documents La Pactole does not appear. I would agree (just from photos on HMF) that "Brightside Cream" is similar.
Reply #9 of 22 posted 13 JUL 15 by Patricia Routley
Yes it did get to Australia. F.C. Davis 1862 and Law Somner 1886 carried 'Le Pactole'. See references.
Reply #11 of 22 posted 14 JUL 15 by Ozoldroser
thanks Patricia - I did say a quick search. I should have checked the catalogues themselves.
Reply #12 of 22 posted 14 JUL 15 by Jane Z
A Mr Guilfoyle, nurseryman is recorded as having Le Pactole in his rose collection in 1854.
Reply #13 of 22 posted 14 JUL 15 by Ozoldroser
Thanks Jane
Reply #10 of 22 posted 14 JUL 15 by scvirginia
Some people report that 'Le Pactole' isn't usually yellow for them. Clearly, it's at least somewhat yellow for many people growing it, looking at the HMF photos. I suppose it is always possible that 'LP' in commerce here is not correct, though it does seem like a good match to early descriptions ("bright yellow" being a relative thing, perhaps).

I like the wallpaper in the photo very much, but eight or more patterns in a room might be a bit much... Thanks for the photos.
Reply #14 of 22 posted 14 JUL 15 by kai-eric
i will add some photos of 'le pactole' - it is mostly pale yellow as hillary pointed out.
Reply #15 of 22 posted 23 JUL 17 by Patricia Routley
Virginia, thank you so much for your interest in the Australian foundling “Yallum Park Cream”. I suspect that you could well be right and that this foundling could be ‘Le Pactole”.

The earlier references for ‘Le Pactole’ often called it a small tea, and this was off-putting. It is actually listed as a china /Bengal on the main page and I really haven’t done my homework on ‘Le Pactole’. If ‘Le Pactole’ is in fact a Noisette, then in my opinion, “Yallum Park Cream” could well be ‘Le Pactole’.

Looking at some history (see the “Yallum Park Cream” main page). An earlier owner laid out a garden in 1863. ‘Le Pactole’ was listed in 1862 by F. C. Davis who had a nursery at Reedbeds, near Renmark. I don’t know how far Yallum Park, Penola is from Reedbeds near Renmark, but it seems likely that the “Yallum Park Cream” may have been purchased from F. C. Davis.
Reply #16 of 22 posted 23 JUL 17 by Margaret Furness
Five hours' drive on modern roads in a modern car. Mine is growing as a free-standing bush (OK, on a fence, but it's taller than the fence). Will check the dimensions tomorrow, and ask Sue to post photos of hers, which is grown as a climber, I think. I would say it has more than "scattered later bloom" - mine is rarely without some flowers.
How does Le Pactole do for scent? "YPC" wafts a sweet scent as a cut flower.
Reply #17 of 22 posted 23 JUL 17 by scvirginia
I was not blessed with a reliable nose for rose scents, but have caught a delightful fragrance from my young 'Le Pactole' plants on occasion- not strong (at least to me), but sweet.

And, no- not "scattered later bloom"; my plants are immature, but they both bloom throughout the year. Jeri Jennings has a plant that's probably more than 15 years old, and she can probably give better info about bloom frequency, but my guess is "blooms in flushes" would be more accurate. She has also reported on Garden Web's Antique Roses Forum that blooms on her plant tend to be more lemony yellow in cooler weather, and whiter in warm weather.

My plants are immature, and have been slow to get started. 'Le Pactole' seems to grow slowly for others also, even when compared to other Teas. The flowers here are mostly buttery yellow with green canes and leaves, but I see photos of 'LP' in California with purplish canes and ivory flowers, sometimes tinged blush.

I seem to recall that 'Le Pactole' was often classed with the Noisettes when she was a youngster. The comment about it being classed as a China/Bengale seemed odd, so I looked through the references. One German reference about 'LP' being shown in the Bengal class; I'm guessing Tea-scented Chinas were included in that class... I think Tea-Noisette is what she is by ancestry, behavior and reputation. I don't think that one mention merits a China/Bengal classification, so I've changed it; if others disagree, it can be added back in.

Another possibility to check out for "YPC" might be a daughter of 'LP'... 'Mme Caroline Küster'. I see that she was recommended for Australian gardens in the 1890's. Unfortunately, there is only one photo at HMF, and not a very useful one for comparisons.

I wish I could tell you more, but my plants are still fairly small.


PS I see that you have 'Louise Darzens' as a possibility, but I think the foliage is wrong- 'LD' having leaflets that are rounder and toothier.
Reply #18 of 22 posted 23 JUL 17 by Margaret Furness
My own-root plant of "Yallum Park Cream", about 10 years old, is 3.5m x 3.5 x 2.5 (8') high. It will scramble through other plants. At present (midwinter in zone 9b) it has a couple of flowers, and many hips. I can't say I've ever seen a yellow flower on it.
Reply #19 of 22 posted 24 JUL 17 by scvirginia
I'm not convinced that 'Le Pactole' always has yellow flowers, but the scrambling habit of "Yallum Park Cream" might be a better differential than color? My plants are fairly young, but seem inclined- like most Teas I've encountered- to grow out before growing up. Photos I've seen of mature plants look like tall, handsome Teas. I do remember reading somewhere that 'Le Pactole' can be encouraged to climb given some support, but I think that's true of many roses. Having 'Lamarque' as a parent might help with that...

I did think that the description of 'Le Pactole' as having a prolific spring flush followed by scattered bloom was not consistent with what I'm seeing, and I confirmed with someone on the Antique Roses Forum that her mature plant blooms in flushes that are almost continuous... i.e., the flushes have a bit of overlap. So I updated the bloom frequency info to 'blooms in flushes', given her confirmation of my (more limited) experience.

I hope this helps,

PS Here's is a link to my Q&A about 'Le Pactole'. There are a few nice photos included of the whole plant.
Reply #20 of 22 posted 25 JUL 17 by Ozoldroser
Patricia the Reedbeds were situated in the suburbs just north of the Adelaide Airport - not at Renmark, but far from Penola. Roses would have come in via Adelaide I suspect. Port Adelaide is not that far north from the Reedbeds either and most sea coming cargo would have come into Port Adelaide.
Reply #21 of 22 posted 25 JUL 17 by Patricia Routley
Thanks Pat. I was mislead by an internet site somewhere.
The T. C. Davis 1862 catalogue also had an impressive listing of trees.
I'll add a few rose references from this catalogue.

'Narcisse' might be worthwhile looking at. I suspect F. C. Davis saw a similarity to 'Le Pactole' but wasn't quite sure in 1862, which rose his was.
Reply #22 of 22 posted 27 JUL 17 by scvirginia
'Narcisse' (but not 'Le Pactole') was listed in the catalogue of plants in the Adelaide Botanical Garden in 1878. Possibly, 'Narcisse' was a better plant there than 'Le Pactole', but your reference from TC Davis raises the question of whether the varieties were confused in commerce early on- at least in that particular part of the world...
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