HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
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most recent 27 JUL SHOW ALL
Initial post 10 JUL 15 by scvirginia
I would like to see it grown side by side with 'Le Pactole' since there are some similarities.

The pink and yellow tones to the flowers and buds make me want to see it grown next to 'Devoniensis', one of the Teas that supposedly has a sweet fragrance...

I also wonder if it could be the same as the Bermuda Mystery Rose "Brightside Cream"? It would make sense if some/many/all of the Bermuda roses might have also made it to Oz and other parts of the British Empire with warmer climes.
Reply #1 of 22 posted 11 JUL 15 by Patricia Routley
From old private correspondence on "Yallum Park Cream", it would appear to be a much larger bush than 'Le Pactole'. I've put 'Le Pactole' in the rejections box, but added "Brightside Cream" and "San Felipe Noisette" to the possibles box. Hopefully people who have the Bermuda rose, or who have seen it, will contribute.

I know I saw a definite difference between "Yallum Park Cream" and 'Devoniensis' last season but probably did not have my little notebook with the pencil attached with string, in my pocket. This will have to wait until next spring for me to reply. Perhaps the people who found "Yallum Park Cream" might contribute more before then.
Reply #2 of 22 posted 12 JUL 15 by Margaret Furness
My post from yesterday has fallen into the ether...
If Le Pactole is still in Australia, it has lost its name, and I'm not aware of "Yallum Park Cream" reaching Europe; so no chance at present of growing them together.
YPC has a Noisette or Tea-Noisette feel to it, with clusters of flowers and a sweet scent. The nearest, I think, is Lamarque. YPC is a much more vigorous plant than the bush form of Devoniensis.
Reply #3 of 22 posted 12 JUL 15 by Patricia Routley
After reading the references for 'Le Pactole', are you happy with putting 'Le Pactole' in the rejections box for "Yallum Park Cream" Margaret?
Reply #4 of 22 posted 12 JUL 15 by scvirginia
Le Pactole is- from what I've read and from my own experience- a bit slow to get started, but there are a couple of photos at its HMF record in which it looks pretty large.

In a thread at the Antique Roses Forum, Jeri Jennings said that her 'Le Pactole' was about 5'tall and 6'wide (about 1.5m x 1.8m), but she had seen one at the Sacramento City Cemetery that was- and I quote- "BIGGER".

To my inexperienced eyes, "Brightside Cream" looks like it's from the same club, and it has been called a Noisette.

I looked at some of the older references for 'Le Pactole' , and was intrigued to read Buist's speculation that 'LP' must be a child of 'Lamarque' and The Yellow Tea ('Smith's Yellow'?).

Reply #5 of 22 posted 12 JUL 15 by Margaret Furness
Le Pactole: "pale sulphur, approaching to a bright yellow in the centre of the flower". I don't think YPC is yellow enough for that, but most of the photos of Le Pactole on hmf aren't, either.
Reply #6 of 22 posted 13 JUL 15 by scvirginia
No, bright yellow was either an exaggeration, or meant something less, well 'bright', than what we mean. But some of the photos of 'Le Pactole' suggest a luminosity that I thought I also saw in photos of "Yallum Park Cream". Now, I'm not sure that I did?

I asked about size of 'LP' on the Antique Roses Forum, and someone in Northern California wrote that her 'Le Pactole' is 7-8 years old, and is about 6.5' tall and 10' wide "and still growing". I suspect it would be pretty large in at least some Australian gardens also.

I did a brief online search about Yallum Park, and learned that the man who built the mansion there made his money selling food to gold prospectors. It would be a good fit if "Yallum Park Cream" turned out to be 'Le Pactole' since the name means 'gold mine'...

Reply #7 of 22 posted 13 JUL 15 by Margaret Furness
Some of the Tealadies (book authors) did some more study at Renmark recently, but feel that more work is needed before offering an ID for some of our foundlings.
As you say, the early references for Le Pactole may be misleading advertising; another possibility is that the rose in commerce under that name is incorrect. I could not call the "Yallum Park Cream" yellow.
Yallum Park is a wonderful 19th century mansion in decline, still in private ownership. It has 53 different William Morris wallpapers, said to be more than in any other house in the world. The Victorians were capable of living with eight or more different wallpapers in the same room...
Reply #8 of 22 posted 13 JUL 15 by Ozoldroser
Doing a quick computer search of old Australian rose Catalogues in my documents La Pactole does not appear. I would agree (just from photos on HMF) that "Brightside Cream" is similar.
Reply #9 of 22 posted 13 JUL 15 by Patricia Routley
Yes it did get to Australia. F.C. Davis 1862 and Law Somner 1886 carried 'Le Pactole'. See references.
Reply #11 of 22 posted 14 JUL 15 by Ozoldroser
thanks Patricia - I did say a quick search. I should have checked the catalogues themselves.
Reply #12 of 22 posted 14 JUL 15 by Jane Z
A Mr Guilfoyle, nurseryman is recorded as having Le Pactole in his rose collection in 1854.
Reply #13 of 22 posted 14 JUL 15 by Ozoldroser
Thanks Jane
Reply #10 of 22 posted 14 JUL 15 by scvirginia
Some people report that 'Le Pactole' isn't usually yellow for them. Clearly, it's at least somewhat yellow for many people growing it, looking at the HMF photos. I suppose it is always possible that 'LP' in commerce here is not correct, though it does seem like a good match to early descriptions ("bright yellow" being a relative thing, perhaps).

I like the wallpaper in the photo very much, but eight or more patterns in a room might be a bit much... Thanks for the photos.
Reply #14 of 22 posted 14 JUL 15 by kai-eric
i will add some photos of 'le pactole' - it is mostly pale yellow as hillary pointed out.
Reply #15 of 22 posted 23 JUL by Patricia Routley
Virginia, thank you so much for your interest in the Australian foundling “Yallum Park Cream”. I suspect that you could well be right and that this foundling could be ‘Le Pactole”.

The earlier references for ‘Le Pactole’ often called it a small tea, and this was off-putting. It is actually listed as a china /Bengal on the main page and I really haven’t done my homework on ‘Le Pactole’. If ‘Le Pactole’ is in fact a Noisette, then in my opinion, “Yallum Park Cream” could well be ‘Le Pactole’.

Looking at some history (see the “Yallum Park Cream” main page). An earlier owner laid out a garden in 1863. ‘Le Pactole’ was listed in 1862 by F. C. Davis who had a nursery at Reedbeds, near Renmark. I don’t know how far Yallum Park, Penola is from Reedbeds near Renmark, but it seems likely that the “Yallum Park Cream” may have been purchased from F. C. Davis.
Reply #16 of 22 posted 23 JUL by Margaret Furness
Five hours' drive on modern roads in a modern car. Mine is growing as a free-standing bush (OK, on a fence, but it's taller than the fence). Will check the dimensions tomorrow, and ask Sue to post photos of hers, which is grown as a climber, I think. I would say it has more than "scattered later bloom" - mine is rarely without some flowers.
How does Le Pactole do for scent? "YPC" wafts a sweet scent as a cut flower.
Reply #17 of 22 posted 23 JUL by scvirginia
I was not blessed with a reliable nose for rose scents, but have caught a delightful fragrance from my young 'Le Pactole' plants on occasion- not strong (at least to me), but sweet.

And, no- not "scattered later bloom"; my plants are immature, but they both bloom throughout the year. Jeri Jennings has a plant that's probably more than 15 years old, and she can probably give better info about bloom frequency, but my guess is "blooms in flushes" would be more accurate. She has also reported on Garden Web's Antique Roses Forum that blooms on her plant tend to be more lemony yellow in cooler weather, and whiter in warm weather.

My plants are immature, and have been slow to get started. 'Le Pactole' seems to grow slowly for others also, even when compared to other Teas. The flowers here are mostly buttery yellow with green canes and leaves, but I see photos of 'LP' in California with purplish canes and ivory flowers, sometimes tinged blush.

I seem to recall that 'Le Pactole' was often classed with the Noisettes when she was a youngster. The comment about it being classed as a China/Bengale seemed odd, so I looked through the references. One German reference about 'LP' being shown in the Bengal class; I'm guessing Tea-scented Chinas were included in that class... I think Tea-Noisette is what she is by ancestry, behavior and reputation. I don't think that one mention merits a China/Bengal classification, so I've changed it; if others disagree, it can be added back in.

Another possibility to check out for "YPC" might be a daughter of 'LP'... 'Mme Caroline Küster'. I see that she was recommended for Australian gardens in the 1890's. Unfortunately, there is only one photo at HMF, and not a very useful one for comparisons.

I wish I could tell you more, but my plants are still fairly small.


PS I see that you have 'Louise Darzens' as a possibility, but I think the foliage is wrong- 'LD' having leaflets that are rounder and toothier.
Reply #18 of 22 posted 23 JUL by Margaret Furness
My own-root plant of "Yallum Park Cream", about 10 years old, is 3.5m x 3.5 x 2.5 (8') high. It will scramble through other plants. At present (midwinter in zone 9b) it has a couple of flowers, and many hips. I can't say I've ever seen a yellow flower on it.
Reply #19 of 22 posted 24 JUL by scvirginia
I'm not convinced that 'Le Pactole' always has yellow flowers, but the scrambling habit of "Yallum Park Cream" might be a better differential than color? My plants are fairly young, but seem inclined- like most Teas I've encountered- to grow out before growing up. Photos I've seen of mature plants look like tall, handsome Teas. I do remember reading somewhere that 'Le Pactole' can be encouraged to climb given some support, but I think that's true of many roses. Having 'Lamarque' as a parent might help with that...

I did think that the description of 'Le Pactole' as having a prolific spring flush followed by scattered bloom was not consistent with what I'm seeing, and I confirmed with someone on the Antique Roses Forum that her mature plant blooms in flushes that are almost continuous... i.e., the flushes have a bit of overlap. So I updated the bloom frequency info to 'blooms in flushes', given her confirmation of my (more limited) experience.

I hope this helps,

PS Here's is a link to my Q&A about 'Le Pactole'. There are a few nice photos included of the whole plant.
Reply #20 of 22 posted 25 JUL by Ozoldroser
Patricia the Reedbeds were situated in the suburbs just north of the Adelaide Airport - not at Renmark, but far from Penola. Roses would have come in via Adelaide I suspect. Port Adelaide is not that far north from the Reedbeds either and most sea coming cargo would have come into Port Adelaide.
Reply #21 of 22 posted 25 JUL by Patricia Routley
Thanks Pat. I was mislead by an internet site somewhere.
The T. C. Davis 1862 catalogue also had an impressive listing of trees.
I'll add a few rose references from this catalogue.

'Narcisse' might be worthwhile looking at. I suspect F. C. Davis saw a similarity to 'Le Pactole' but wasn't quite sure in 1862, which rose his was.
Reply #22 of 22 posted 27 JUL by scvirginia
'Narcisse' (but not 'Le Pactole') was listed in the catalogue of plants in the Adelaide Botanical Garden in 1878. Possibly, 'Narcisse' was a better plant there than 'Le Pactole', but your reference from TC Davis raises the question of whether the varieties were confused in commerce early on- at least in that particular part of the world...
most recent 9 JAN 17 SHOW ALL
Initial post 14 FEB 08 by Joelle Keene
I have a very tall (one cane is 15 feet) climbing Maman Cochet growing in south-facing sun, beautiful delicate foliage, very healthy plant, now in its third year having grown from bareroot (very small) from an old rose mail-order website. Not one bloom yet ever. I keep thinking about digging it up but it's so strong ... I just know that if it bloomed it would be gorgeous .... Any suggestions? I've already checked the roots to see whether they were bound (they're not), and two other roses in the same soil are flowering fine. This week I again added compost and some organic rose fertilizer (Whitney Farms). Thanks so much if you can help!
Reply #1 of 12 posted 21 NOV 08 by Gartenjockels kleine gaerten
dear joelle,
did she flower this season at least, after the treatment you gave her?

best wishes
Reply #2 of 12 posted 21 NOV 08 by jedmar
Ist auch auf unserer Liste!
Reply #3 of 12 posted 23 NOV 08 by Joelle Keene
Yes! Not at first, but in mid-summer I tried replacing all the soil there, and after that -- in early September, actually -- she gave me about five beautiful, delicate blooms, all about 8 or 10 feet high up but still ... Anyway five blooms is still ridiculous for such a large plant, so obviously there's something wrong.

Thanks for asking, Kai-Eric, and please tell me if you have any other suggestions!
Best wishes to you too!

Reply #4 of 12 posted 23 NOV 08 by Cass
Hi, Joelle. I think you should read about Rose Midge. Cl. Maman Cochet is a very floriferous rose. Your soil replacement could have disrupted the life cycle of Rose Midge. You don't want it to establish a population in your garden. By far the best website is at Oregon State:

Good luck!
Reply #5 of 12 posted 28 DEC 16 by theycallmejoe
Hello :)

Old thread...but I am new to the site. It's funny but I've had the exact same experience as Joelle. I've had my climbing maman cochet for 2 seasons now, which started as a hefty-looking bare rooted plant grafted on multiflora. It's been in a large pot in the courtyard and growing against the house at good aspect, but bad situation. It is shaded from morning sun by the house and at the height of summer, only gets full sun from 1-4 pm.

First year growth was super tall but spindly. Foliage only on top part of the plant and only two flower buds that never eventuated.

Second year growth, maman slowly put on foliage all through most of the winter, again only on the top part of the plant, which was well over head. After the neighbour's giant tree came down letting more light in, Maman put out a thick, 4-meter cane, shooting straight up towards the sun. It never paused once to put out a side branch. I had one single bud form on an older branch at the end of warm Sydney winter. I visited it every day, morning and afternoon, waiting for it to open, super excited to see my first ever maman cochet bloom. Then it dropped off! I inspected it and there was no sign of bug damage. The insides were pristine but underdeveloped. The whole bud just turned yellowish and dropped.

When I read Cass' last post I tried to ascertain whether I had rose midge...but I'm till confused as to whether I have it or not. Some new basal shoots got eaten off by something and it did look like midge damage, some swollen bud eyes get brown and crusty looking, but the brown falls off to reveal good green growth inside. I have disected suspicious brown, wasted parts from all my roses, but there was not one RM maggot in sight.

Im hoping Maman is either still settling in, or that she doesn't like her spot, or that she would like a deeper root run than the pot allows. If she doesn't flower by autumn despite many amendments... I'll put her in the ground in a sunnier spot and hope she won't be the typhoid mary for the rest of the roses in the garden that are blooming well.
Reply #6 of 12 posted 29 DEC 16 by Patricia Routley
Hello theycallmejoe - and welcome to HelpMefind.
You really have answered your own question. 'Maman Cochet' is a tea rose and a big plant and it would hate a pot. It would actually prefer full sun, every day and all day - certainly more than a maximum of 4 hours in mid-summer.
Reply #7 of 12 posted 29 DEC 16 by Rupert, Kim L.
I'm chiming in to confirm Patricia's post. "Large pot" can mean anything. What's large to one person is completely insufficient to another. Cl. Maman Cochet wants to be a LARGE plant, 12' - 20' per its rose page here. A plant that large is going to demand a huge root run to produce the size of plant with the associated foliage mass to perform as it is genetically 'programmed'. Add that morning sun is the "cleaner" light, without the extra heat of afternoon sun and your plant is against a house wall which absorbs and reflects and radiates that heat, potentially cooking the plant tissue against it. That will dramatically increase the water requirement of the plant, just to maintain itself, much less grow and flower. In cold climates, that passive solar energy released by that wall is a wonderful thing, permitting gardeners to successfully grow plants they otherwise may not have been able to. But, if you're in a warmer climate, you could easily be cooking the rose against that wall. Do Maman (and you) a favor. Plant her out in the yard with a nice, long fence upon which to grow so she can be trained out horizontally and produce the loads of lateral growths which will become her flowering stems, and where she can stretch her roots to match her top growth. You both will very likely be quite happy you did. Good luck!
Reply #8 of 12 posted 30 DEC 16 by theycallmejoe
Hi Kim! Thank a bundle for the advice :)

It's in a 10 gallon pot that's squat in shape. Ill put it in the ground this coming winter when it's a bit more dormant...though it never looks completely dormant in these subtropical parts. I have been attached to the idea of having roses in the paved courtyard, overhanging windows and so forth, but it seems that there's just not enough of what they want in the spot. I've tried other so-called shade tolerant roses in there too, like Pierre de Ronsard, Jude the Obscure, and the Stormy Weather rose, all without much success. They grow very tall, and with beautiful foliage end of winter and into spring, maybe pop out a bloom or two, then the weather heats up they become spider mite city... which makes sense to me now after you mentioned the retained heat of the brick wall they're up against. Blasting them with jets of water regularly caused a lot of BS. The search for the right rose, if any, will be ongoing. Will try hybrid musk and/or a polyantha in there maybe, as I've read they do shade good.

Thanks again :) Will post back to update if Maman goes well down the track.


Reply #9 of 12 posted 30 DEC 16 by Rupert, Kim L.
You're welcome! I can completely understand your desire to have roses festooning over the windows and transforming your courtyard....but..the spider mite and black spot issues are going to be nearly universal no matter what "class" or variety of rose you select. Ten gallons isn't that large for a rose, even under ideal conditions. Trying to grow a rose which is going to need a root system almost as large as its top growth in that kind of restricted amount of soil; then making it one which is genetically programmed to have a LARGE mass of a plant and putting it somewhere it has to stretch for light AND endure the spider mites, very high transpiration due to the reflected heat and its resultant water stresses (which suppress immune responses, making the plant more susceptible to insect and disease attacks) and the moist/humid conditions favoring black spot, seems like setting yourself up for failure to me. That does not seem a "rose situation" at all from your description.

Add that "shade tolerant" means many different things to many different people and is highly dependent upon actual location and situation. If you take your cue from Nature, you will see that "shade tolerant" roses are primarily those with very light colored, pastel, mainly white blooms. They are also traditionally very small, single to semi single flowers which require very little actual heat/light energy to open. The light colors are required due to the reduced light qualities in "shade". Everything in Nature is genetically programmed to reproduce before dying to perpetuate the species. Flowering is ovulation. Seed set is pregnancy. Though roses do tend to pollinate themselves, they also rely upon pollinators (primarily bees, which are not that active in shade compared to sun) which must be attracted to the blooms. That attraction is due more to light reflection than scent. Roses which naturally grow in reduced light (under story plants on the edges of woodlands) need the light colored blooms to reflect the lower light so the pollinators can "see" them. Look at roses which naturally grow in extreme sun conditions, such as Hulthemia, Foetida and their like. They have brilliant flowers. In Hulthemia's case, with a central zone of dark, saturated red almost like a target, making finding the pollen and stigma easier for insects to hone in on.

Those shade growers are also almost always climbers which will tolerate the reduced light until they push themselves up and through the tree canopy where their flowering (reproductive) wood is usually out in the warm sun, where they flower (ovulate) and where pollinators can more easily find them. "Tolerating shade" does not really mean "grows and flowers well with decent health" in lower light. It means they will exist, sometimes without extreme foliage issues and sometimes providing acceptable levels of flowers, but they are seldom as good as they could be under higher light conditions. The greater the petal count, the higher the light requirements of the rose. The larger the flowers, the greater the light/heat requirements. It takes a lot of energy to create then physically open those many, large petals.

The roses which tend to be the most shade tolerant are mainly those more closely related to R. multiflora. "Hybrid Musk" roses are not really "musk" roses, but hybrids of multiflora. From experience here in Southern California, which, I agree, is a totally different set of issues from yours, the most successful growing and flowering roses for severe shade conditions are Cl. Iceberg and Sally Holmes, neither of which are particularly resistant to black spot or mildew under truly adverse conditions. Nor do I believe you are going to find that high black spot resistance in an extremely shade tolerant rose. Nature frequently uses disease to "tell" the rose how to respond to the conditions it grows in. But, that is another subject for another post. The set you describe honestly does not seem "rose suitable" to me.
Reply #10 of 12 posted 6 JAN 17 by theycallmejoe
Thank you Patricia and thank you Kim. Yes, I will transfer her out for sure. Actually, my whole situation here is not rose suitable, to be perfectly honest. There was once a time where the courtyard and in a pot was the best spot I could offer. We were surrounded by five GIANT trees; two being gums, one a Morton Bay Fig, the other a macadamia--the surface roots on those form mats denser than Bob Marley's do--all on a little suburban scenario. We were covered in shade and spiders for many years. Aw, for the love of roses! Anyway I kept trying. Things have changed for the better recently, though the gum trees remain. There's a lot more light and for the first time I see blooms out there...a very encouraging response. If there is a root competition, the way I see Maman growing now, I reckon she's contender for the championship. I've seen Australians growing roses in the vicinity of gums, draping Banksia Lutea right ON the gum so I suppose there is hope. Of course Banksia is a species rose with special abilities. But it also seems that Teas in this climate have their own set of special abilities. Mad constant research can only get one (me) so far. I'm ready to embark on some serious trial and error right about now. Here goes! Ill transfer her out when she's not busy growing like a monster. Really I'd like to put her in now, tomorrow! I had better take a cutting...

Let y'all know how it goes. Again, many thanks for the very helpful comments.
Reply #11 of 12 posted 6 JAN 17 by Rupert, Kim L.
You're welcome! My fingers are crossed for you! Good luck!
Reply #12 of 12 posted 9 JAN 17 by Margaret Furness
The standard teaching is that if you want a rose to climb (or ramble) up a tree, you plant the tree and the rose at the same time.
Something I've learnt the hard way: not to plant a Tea in a confined space.
most recent 31 JUL 16 SHOW ALL
Initial post 4 JUN 13 by Gartenjockels kleine gaerten
did anyone compare ever charleston graveyard with the china/bengale louis-philippe? i see some similarities in growth and fragrance.
15-aug-2013: extremely vigorous and floriferous.
Reply #1 of 3 posted 30 JUL 16 by Susu's garden
Yes. Pat Henry at Roses Unlimited confirmed to me in 2014 that she now believes it is Louis Phillipe.
Reply #2 of 3 posted 31 JUL 16 by Patricia Routley
I was hoping another Administrator might take some action on this one......however.
Would you like me to merge "Charleston Graveyard" with 'Louis-Philippe' (china, Guérin, 1834), or at the very least, put a notation on the "Charleston Graveyard" page as to what it is thought to be?
Reply #3 of 3 posted 31 JUL 16 by Susu's garden
Absolutely. Thank you very much. Susan
most recent 13 JUL 16 SHOW ALL
Initial post 23 JUL 14 by Gartenjockels kleine gaerten
'mme jules gravereaux' and 'comtesse de noghera' at sangerhausen are identical!
Reply #1 of 1 posted 13 JUL 16 by John Hook
I agree, this rose in commerce is incorrect. Apart from appearing identical they are both very difficult to take from cuttings and the own-root plants are very weak
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