HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
Member
Profile
PhotosFavoritesCommentsJournalCuttingsMember
Garden
Member
Listings
 
kai-eric
most recent 9 JAN 17 SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 14 FEB 08 by Joelle Keene
I have a very tall (one cane is 15 feet) climbing Maman Cochet growing in south-facing sun, beautiful delicate foliage, very healthy plant, now in its third year having grown from bareroot (very small) from an old rose mail-order website. Not one bloom yet ever. I keep thinking about digging it up but it's so strong ... I just know that if it bloomed it would be gorgeous .... Any suggestions? I've already checked the roots to see whether they were bound (they're not), and two other roses in the same soil are flowering fine. This week I again added compost and some organic rose fertilizer (Whitney Farms). Thanks so much if you can help!
REPLY
Reply #1 of 12 posted 21 NOV 08 by Gartenjockels kleine gaerten
dear joelle,
did she flower this season at least, after the treatment you gave her?

best wishes
kai-eric
REPLY
Reply #2 of 12 posted 21 NOV 08 by jedmar
Ist auch auf unserer Liste!
REPLY
Reply #3 of 12 posted 23 NOV 08 by Joelle Keene
Yes! Not at first, but in mid-summer I tried replacing all the soil there, and after that -- in early September, actually -- she gave me about five beautiful, delicate blooms, all about 8 or 10 feet high up but still ... Anyway five blooms is still ridiculous for such a large plant, so obviously there's something wrong.

Thanks for asking, Kai-Eric, and please tell me if you have any other suggestions!
Best wishes to you too!

~joelle
REPLY
Reply #4 of 12 posted 23 NOV 08 by Cass
Hi, Joelle. I think you should read about Rose Midge. Cl. Maman Cochet is a very floriferous rose. Your soil replacement could have disrupted the life cycle of Rose Midge. You don't want it to establish a population in your garden. By far the best website is at Oregon State:
http://oregonstate.edu/dept/nurspest/rose_midge.htm

Good luck!
REPLY
Reply #5 of 12 posted 28 DEC 16 by theycallmejoe
Hello :)

Old thread...but I am new to the site. It's funny but I've had the exact same experience as Joelle. I've had my climbing maman cochet for 2 seasons now, which started as a hefty-looking bare rooted plant grafted on multiflora. It's been in a large pot in the courtyard and growing against the house at good aspect, but bad situation. It is shaded from morning sun by the house and at the height of summer, only gets full sun from 1-4 pm.

First year growth was super tall but spindly. Foliage only on top part of the plant and only two flower buds that never eventuated.

Second year growth, maman slowly put on foliage all through most of the winter, again only on the top part of the plant, which was well over head. After the neighbour's giant tree came down letting more light in, Maman put out a thick, 4-meter cane, shooting straight up towards the sun. It never paused once to put out a side branch. I had one single bud form on an older branch at the end of warm Sydney winter. I visited it every day, morning and afternoon, waiting for it to open, super excited to see my first ever maman cochet bloom. Then it dropped off! I inspected it and there was no sign of bug damage. The insides were pristine but underdeveloped. The whole bud just turned yellowish and dropped.

When I read Cass' last post I tried to ascertain whether I had rose midge...but I'm till confused as to whether I have it or not. Some new basal shoots got eaten off by something and it did look like midge damage, some swollen bud eyes get brown and crusty looking, but the brown falls off to reveal good green growth inside. I have disected suspicious brown, wasted parts from all my roses, but there was not one RM maggot in sight.

Im hoping Maman is either still settling in, or that she doesn't like her spot, or that she would like a deeper root run than the pot allows. If she doesn't flower by autumn despite many amendments... I'll put her in the ground in a sunnier spot and hope she won't be the typhoid mary for the rest of the roses in the garden that are blooming well.
REPLY
Reply #6 of 12 posted 29 DEC 16 by Patricia Routley
Hello theycallmejoe - and welcome to HelpMefind.
You really have answered your own question. 'Maman Cochet' is a tea rose and a big plant and it would hate a pot. It would actually prefer full sun, every day and all day - certainly more than a maximum of 4 hours in mid-summer.
REPLY
Reply #7 of 12 posted 29 DEC 16 by Rupert, Kim L.
I'm chiming in to confirm Patricia's post. "Large pot" can mean anything. What's large to one person is completely insufficient to another. Cl. Maman Cochet wants to be a LARGE plant, 12' - 20' per its rose page here. A plant that large is going to demand a huge root run to produce the size of plant with the associated foliage mass to perform as it is genetically 'programmed'. Add that morning sun is the "cleaner" light, without the extra heat of afternoon sun and your plant is against a house wall which absorbs and reflects and radiates that heat, potentially cooking the plant tissue against it. That will dramatically increase the water requirement of the plant, just to maintain itself, much less grow and flower. In cold climates, that passive solar energy released by that wall is a wonderful thing, permitting gardeners to successfully grow plants they otherwise may not have been able to. But, if you're in a warmer climate, you could easily be cooking the rose against that wall. Do Maman (and you) a favor. Plant her out in the yard with a nice, long fence upon which to grow so she can be trained out horizontally and produce the loads of lateral growths which will become her flowering stems, and where she can stretch her roots to match her top growth. You both will very likely be quite happy you did. Good luck!
REPLY
Reply #8 of 12 posted 30 DEC 16 by theycallmejoe
Hi Kim! Thank a bundle for the advice :)

It's in a 10 gallon pot that's squat in shape. Ill put it in the ground this coming winter when it's a bit more dormant...though it never looks completely dormant in these subtropical parts. I have been attached to the idea of having roses in the paved courtyard, overhanging windows and so forth, but it seems that there's just not enough of what they want in the spot. I've tried other so-called shade tolerant roses in there too, like Pierre de Ronsard, Jude the Obscure, and the Stormy Weather rose, all without much success. They grow very tall, and with beautiful foliage end of winter and into spring, maybe pop out a bloom or two, then the weather heats up they become spider mite city... which makes sense to me now after you mentioned the retained heat of the brick wall they're up against. Blasting them with jets of water regularly caused a lot of BS. The search for the right rose, if any, will be ongoing. Will try hybrid musk and/or a polyantha in there maybe, as I've read they do shade good.

Thanks again :) Will post back to update if Maman goes well down the track.

Cheers

k
REPLY
Reply #9 of 12 posted 30 DEC 16 by Rupert, Kim L.
You're welcome! I can completely understand your desire to have roses festooning over the windows and transforming your courtyard....but..the spider mite and black spot issues are going to be nearly universal no matter what "class" or variety of rose you select. Ten gallons isn't that large for a rose, even under ideal conditions. Trying to grow a rose which is going to need a root system almost as large as its top growth in that kind of restricted amount of soil; then making it one which is genetically programmed to have a LARGE mass of a plant and putting it somewhere it has to stretch for light AND endure the spider mites, very high transpiration due to the reflected heat and its resultant water stresses (which suppress immune responses, making the plant more susceptible to insect and disease attacks) and the moist/humid conditions favoring black spot, seems like setting yourself up for failure to me. That does not seem a "rose situation" at all from your description.

Add that "shade tolerant" means many different things to many different people and is highly dependent upon actual location and situation. If you take your cue from Nature, you will see that "shade tolerant" roses are primarily those with very light colored, pastel, mainly white blooms. They are also traditionally very small, single to semi single flowers which require very little actual heat/light energy to open. The light colors are required due to the reduced light qualities in "shade". Everything in Nature is genetically programmed to reproduce before dying to perpetuate the species. Flowering is ovulation. Seed set is pregnancy. Though roses do tend to pollinate themselves, they also rely upon pollinators (primarily bees, which are not that active in shade compared to sun) which must be attracted to the blooms. That attraction is due more to light reflection than scent. Roses which naturally grow in reduced light (under story plants on the edges of woodlands) need the light colored blooms to reflect the lower light so the pollinators can "see" them. Look at roses which naturally grow in extreme sun conditions, such as Hulthemia, Foetida and their like. They have brilliant flowers. In Hulthemia's case, with a central zone of dark, saturated red almost like a target, making finding the pollen and stigma easier for insects to hone in on.

Those shade growers are also almost always climbers which will tolerate the reduced light until they push themselves up and through the tree canopy where their flowering (reproductive) wood is usually out in the warm sun, where they flower (ovulate) and where pollinators can more easily find them. "Tolerating shade" does not really mean "grows and flowers well with decent health" in lower light. It means they will exist, sometimes without extreme foliage issues and sometimes providing acceptable levels of flowers, but they are seldom as good as they could be under higher light conditions. The greater the petal count, the higher the light requirements of the rose. The larger the flowers, the greater the light/heat requirements. It takes a lot of energy to create then physically open those many, large petals.

The roses which tend to be the most shade tolerant are mainly those more closely related to R. multiflora. "Hybrid Musk" roses are not really "musk" roses, but hybrids of multiflora. From experience here in Southern California, which, I agree, is a totally different set of issues from yours, the most successful growing and flowering roses for severe shade conditions are Cl. Iceberg and Sally Holmes, neither of which are particularly resistant to black spot or mildew under truly adverse conditions. Nor do I believe you are going to find that high black spot resistance in an extremely shade tolerant rose. Nature frequently uses disease to "tell" the rose how to respond to the conditions it grows in. But, that is another subject for another post. The set you describe honestly does not seem "rose suitable" to me.
REPLY
Reply #10 of 12 posted 6 JAN 17 by theycallmejoe
Thank you Patricia and thank you Kim. Yes, I will transfer her out for sure. Actually, my whole situation here is not rose suitable, to be perfectly honest. There was once a time where the courtyard and in a pot was the best spot I could offer. We were surrounded by five GIANT trees; two being gums, one a Morton Bay Fig, the other a macadamia--the surface roots on those form mats denser than Bob Marley's do--all on a little suburban scenario. We were covered in shade and spiders for many years. Aw, for the love of roses! Anyway I kept trying. Things have changed for the better recently, though the gum trees remain. There's a lot more light and for the first time I see blooms out there...a very encouraging response. If there is a root competition, the way I see Maman growing now, I reckon she's contender for the championship. I've seen Australians growing roses in the vicinity of gums, draping Banksia Lutea right ON the gum so I suppose there is hope. Of course Banksia is a species rose with special abilities. But it also seems that Teas in this climate have their own set of special abilities. Mad constant research can only get one (me) so far. I'm ready to embark on some serious trial and error right about now. Here goes! Ill transfer her out when she's not busy growing like a monster. Really I'd like to put her in now, tomorrow! I had better take a cutting...

Let y'all know how it goes. Again, many thanks for the very helpful comments.
REPLY
Reply #11 of 12 posted 6 JAN 17 by Rupert, Kim L.
You're welcome! My fingers are crossed for you! Good luck!
REPLY
Reply #12 of 12 posted 9 JAN 17 by Margaret Furness
The standard teaching is that if you want a rose to climb (or ramble) up a tree, you plant the tree and the rose at the same time.
Something I've learnt the hard way: not to plant a Tea in a confined space.
REPLY
most recent 31 JUL 16 SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 4 JUN 13 by Gartenjockels kleine gaerten
did anyone compare ever charleston graveyard with the china/bengale louis-philippe? i see some similarities in growth and fragrance.
15-aug-2013: extremely vigorous and floriferous.
REPLY
Reply #1 of 3 posted 30 JUL 16 by Susu's garden
Yes. Pat Henry at Roses Unlimited confirmed to me in 2014 that she now believes it is Louis Phillipe.
REPLY
Reply #2 of 3 posted 31 JUL 16 by Patricia Routley
I was hoping another Administrator might take some action on this one......however.
Would you like me to merge "Charleston Graveyard" with 'Louis-Philippe' (china, Guérin, 1834), or at the very least, put a notation on the "Charleston Graveyard" page as to what it is thought to be?
Patricia
REPLY
Reply #3 of 3 posted 31 JUL 16 by Susu's garden
Absolutely. Thank you very much. Susan
REPLY
most recent 13 JUL 16 SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 23 JUL 14 by Gartenjockels kleine gaerten
'mme jules gravereaux' and 'comtesse de noghera' at sangerhausen are identical!
REPLY
Reply #1 of 1 posted 13 JUL 16 by John Hook
I agree, this rose in commerce is incorrect. Apart from appearing identical they are both very difficult to take from cuttings and the own-root plants are very weak
REPLY
most recent 25 SEP 15 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 22 SEP 15 by John Hook
Tea roses in Australia to 1975. Anlaby 1900 -1922. pink with fawn (Gloire de Bordeaux)
REPLY
Reply #1 of 1 posted 25 SEP 15 by kai-eric
good news!
REPLY
© 2018 HelpMeFind.com