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Questions, Answers and Comments by Category
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I'm hoping one of the tea ladies can help with this rose. It is planted in the Barbara May Rose Garden at Rookwood Cemetery in Sydney, Australia, so I assume it's a foundling that has been renamed, but I'd like to know what name it has been given so I can look at more photos of it. It appears to be an intermediate between a Tea and a China, bright dark red, and velvety (my photographs don't pick this quality up that well). I've been looking at my photos and the early photos and illustrations of 'Princesse de Sagan' and seeing similarities, I am wondering if they could be the same.
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#1 of 17 posted
7 DEC 18 by
 Jay-Jay
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Maybe better photographing it in the morning- or evening light or on a cloudy day. Better red colors and less UV.
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#2 of 17 posted
7 DEC 18 by
HubertG
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I agree. It fact I hadn't planned a visit here at all and was just nearby and decided to drop in and it was about noon. I was using my phone to photograph the rose, and dark or bright reds are always difficult to capture accurately with it. None of the roses were labelled. I'm really curious about this one. This photo captures the velvet a bit better but is out of focus.
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#3 of 17 posted
7 DEC 18 by
Jay-Jay
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It looks (as if) without prickles.
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#4 of 17 posted
7 DEC 18 by
HubertG
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It did have thorns, but wasn't overly thorny. You can see a couple on the branch at the top right here.
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Billy Teabag is off air for while.
The garden is looked after by the Sydney branch of Heritage Roses in Australia. I'll send a contact email address via pm.
I don't know if they planted "Camnethan Cherry-red" there. The plant given the study name was collected in Victoria.
To quote (from memory) the Indian Rose Journal: Plants in public gardens should be labelled, as the public like to know what they're stealing.
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#6 of 17 posted
7 DEC 18 by
Jay-JayReply
#7 of 17 posted
7 DEC 18 by
HubertG
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I have grown "Camnethan Cherry Red" before and my impression was they weren't the same rose.
And I can't believe I forgot to smell it, although simply standing near it I didn't detect a perfume.
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If you were able to find out, I would love to know its “study name” HubertG
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#9 of 17 posted
9 DEC 18 by
HubertG
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I sent a message to the lady who should know. I'll post its study name as soon as I find out.
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Take a look at the file "J. Datson" (syn :Frank Veal"). Sorry I am not able to search for more info for a couple of days but will get back to it and add whatever I find.
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"J Datson" at Renmark is low-growing, pretty much "just another China". I think the flowers are smaller than in your photos.
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#13 of 17 posted
11 DEC 18 by
HubertG
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Just regarding the possibility of this rose being 'Princesse de Sagan':-
There are a few more recently posted early American catalogue photos of PdS (and bear in mind that they MAY not be accurate) which are a bit at odds with the rather shaggy open flowers in the Henry Moon illustration. However looking at this rose at Rookwood, the opening flowers are rather cupped, with a rounded outline that tends to match these photos. The petals only seem to reflex when they are more open. The drawing in the Journal des Roses actually bears a fair resemblance to some of these Rookwood blooms, but the most notable point about this illustration for me is that the bud receptacles are a close match for our rose, as are the spacing and poise of the loose clusters. The bud shown in the Geroge H. Mellem 1906 drawing (which looks to me like it's done from a photo) shows a very similar bud shape. The notable point for me about the Moon painting is that the terminal leaflet is rather long and attenuated (compare to the KAV leaves alongside) and this does match the Rookwood rose (see my 4th photo for a fair example).
Here's another photo of an opening bloom still with its rounded outline. There are about 5 rows of petals and you can just see the stamens. It's interesting that one of the American catalogues call PdS "The crimson Brabant" and I wonder if it is because of this cup shape and it's freedom of bloom.
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#12 of 17 posted
11 DEC 18 by
HubertG
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Thanks Patricia, I had a quick look at "J. Datson" which seems to be very similar to 'Cramoisi Superieur'.
The rose I photographed had flowers too large to be a China like that, with blooms maybe 2 1/2" to 3" across (just guessing from memory). Small to medium for a tea but too large for the classic red china class. There were in fact a couple of typical red Chinas in that Rookwood garden, one was small and barely more than single with a white eye from memory.
Edit: I just saw your post, Margaret, yes I agree with you. Here's another photo of the mystery rose.
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The nearly-single China with a white eye has the study name "Jane Vaughn". I no longer have it.
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#15 of 17 posted
23 JAN 19 by
HubertG
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After some communications it seems this mystery red rose is thought to be 'Lady Brisbane'/'Cramoisi Superieur'.
To be honest, I'm not totally convinced that this is right. I grew a 'Cramoisi Superieur' close to 18 years ago. I had it and 'Semperflorens' which I still have. These two roses were very close in several ways but 'Cramoisi Superieur' had slightly larger flowers, a bit more double, but a little lighter in colour than 'Semperflorens'. 'CS' though couldn't have been mistaken for anything other than a China, and this rose at Rookwood was allied to the Chinas but seemed to have Tea characteristics as well.
I'll definitely go back sometime to look at it again. Maybe it is 'Lady Brisbane' and this isn't actually identical to 'CS'. I just feel, having grown 'CS' that I would have recognised this Rookwood rose as that variety if they had been the same. If I remember correctly my old 'CS' also had a substantial amount of white at the petal bases, something I didn't observe at Rookwood.
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If you can possibly find out its original "study name", I will search my past correspondence with Jane Zammit for any more information. You have good photos and observations, but without a specific file for this rose, we will never find it all again in "What Is This".
Margaret and HubertG. I will put your comments on "J. Datson" in that file. (When there is no info at all, anything helps).
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#17 of 17 posted
26 JAN 19 by
HubertG
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I'll pursue the original study name.
It is interesting in the file of "J. Datson" the information on the description page that says the 'Cramoisi Superieur' from Heather Rumsey was different to the 'Lady Brisbane' plants at Rookwood according to one person. It would perhaps reinforce the idea that this red Tea-China is possibly not 'Cramoisi Superieur' after all.
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