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'Fourth of July' rose Reviews & Comments
Discussion id : 22-761
most recent 25 NOV 07 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 24 NOV 07 by Judith C.
I see there are a lot of variations of colour on the blooms in these photos, some nearly completely red, some with a lot of white. What does that depend on? Is it a question of how much sun the rosebush gets, or does each bloom evolve as it ages? Thanks!
Reply #1 of 4 posted 24 NOV 07 by Cass
Judith, the flecking on Fourth of July is quite variable. The blooms do not change color. Some have much more white, others have much more red. The foliage is wonderful. The effect in the garden is not, uh, under-stated. This photo very accurately captures the color:

The yellow stamens reflect on the white at the center, giving a deceptive impression of a yellow eye in some digital images.
Reply #2 of 4 posted 25 NOV 07 by Judith C.
Thank you for your answer, Cass. It is really a beautiful flower, and I don't normally like flecked blooms ... I sometimes wonder if roses vary slightly according to the country they are sold in. As time goes on too, maybe they vary from the 'original' plant. Just a thought ... Thanks, Judith.
Reply #3 of 4 posted 25 NOV 07 by Cass
There's certainly no question that roses are affected by rootstock, Judith, and not always for the good. I had heard reports of Fourth of July refusing to grow. I bought my plant own root at a (blush) drug store. It took off and grew 8 foot canes the first summer.

There are theories of rose deterioration that remain unproven. I happen to believe there's more than enough variation in climate, light, soil, cameras, and skill in shooting a complex background to explain the way how differently this rose looks. Many digital CCD's cannot properly process complicated patterned backgrounds. Add to that that the slightest change in color hue throws the red one way or the other.

France is almost arctic compared to southern California where this rose was bred. Think of it as bred in Rabat, Morocco, which has roughly the same latitude as Los Angeles.
Reply #4 of 4 posted 25 NOV 07 by Judith C.
Pity I can't put a smiley with a big laugh, Cass!! I like your remark about France being 'arctic'! Well, we do have some cold winters sometimes, where I am at any rate, though the climate is changing and the winters are getting milder on the whole. The summers are hotter than before too (35°C+), but nowhere near like Morocco admittedly.
At any rate, I pre-dug the hole this afternoon for the Fourth of July, as the earth was nice and soft today. So I'll get on with ordering one and then I'll be able to see if I'm lucky or not! My favourite photos are those by Peter and Celeste, so I'll keep my fingers crossed! Thanks once again, Judith.
Discussion id : 20-878
most recent 17 AUG 07 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 14 AUG 07 by rose girl
Are there any specific instructions on tieing climbers?

Ca rose girl
Reply #1 of 5 posted 15 AUG 07 by Cass
Hi, Ca rose girl,

I have lots of ways to tie climbers, and 'Fourth of July' in particular. It is a thorny thug that will saw through twine. I'd like to know how you are training it, what kind of structure you are tying onto, and how long the canes are. Also, take a look at the EZINE article on climbers:

Standard climbers can be tied with jute twine. It's a perfect material - - a nice muted tone that disappears in the garden, a natural material that doesn't reflect or otherwise announce itself, biodegradable, and inexpensive. The usual attachment is a sort of figure-8 with the cane through one loop and the structure through the other. No need to cinch it up too tight. Leave just a bit of play. Tie with a bow at first until the entire climber is tied, as you may have to retie a cane or two at first. Then go back and tie perfect knots and trim off all excess. Neatness counts.

Some climbers are very thorny and will saw through twine. For them, I reserve my favorite tie material that I have used for 8 years. It is green coated stranded copper wire. The gauge of the wire is 16, I think, but you will have to check in the electrical supply section of the hardware store. You want a dark forest green. Yes, it is expensive. No, despite dire warnings it does not cause canker and galls, assuming you tie it correctly in a figure-8 as described above: not too tight, just right. And it is reusable, retieable, and a very acceptable matte dark green. Start with a piece about 10 inches long for your first tie and adjust the length of each attachment as you gain experience.

When to tie? Constantly, it seems. Train new canes soon after they grow, or they may become too stiff to move into the position you wish. Retie each winter when you prune to remove old unproductive canes - usually the oldest canes after they have produced laterals that bloomed for a year or two. Retie to readjust the canes on your structure, to rebalance for new growth. In practice, I often retie twice a year: in the fall, to tie the canes that grew over the the new season, and in the late winter after I've pruned the climber for the season.

That's how to tie a climber. How to train is a different issue. Training is the manner in which the canes are bent, pruned, removed, and adjusted on the structure. Training is specific to the variety of rose and to the structure. Those darned climbers grow in a dozen different ways.

Let's hear about your 'Fourth of July.'

Reply #2 of 5 posted 16 AUG 07 by rose girl
Hi Cass,

You are so helpful! I have two Fourth of July's newly planted on either side of a wrought iron 7' high by 1' wide arbor. The plants are about 4 1/2' tall. I could tell right away that what might have been straight-forward -- tying up the plants -- must be handled properly. And you are right; why bother with a beautiful plant and have an ugly tie? And I can already see where training comes into play. Nice tip about the electrical wire.

So how far back do you prune in winter? Treat it just like another rose and trim all the way back?

I'll check out the article, too.

Many thanks! CA rose girl
Reply #3 of 5 posted 16 AUG 07 by Cass
Hi, CA rose.
Let's be even more specific because "arbor" can ambiguous. An arbor should be a 3 dimensional structure you walk through or sit under, like you see around a gate. If that is what you have, I'm missing the third measurement. Think of it as two ladders with a ladder over the top. The distance between the two vertical ladders is important. If your arbor is 1 foot deep, you will have to train in a very specific way! Does your arbor have a top? I need a better visual.
Some people call a trellis an arbor. That's a piece of lattice or other flat work that is mounted on a wall or fence.
Let's talk about winter pruning after I'm clear about your arbor. Fourth of July produces 8 foot canes in my climate. What Sunset Zone are you in?
To answer very generally, climbers are roses with long basal canes. When those canes are trained somewhat horizontally, they will produce flowering lateral canes. If we don't train them horizontally, they bloom at the top, 12 feet up in the sky. I call the long basal canes climbing canes. Sometimes a climbing cane consists of a basal that has been cut off to a lateral that has then taken off and grown very long itself, producing its own laterals.
When we prune climbers, we do not generally shorten climbing canes. We prune the flowering laterals only, and we prune them fairly hard - - down to 3 or 5 bud eyes up from the climbing cane. I'll take a picture later today, so you can see this.
After a year or sometimes two, depending on your climate and the climber, a basal cane is used up, old and tired. The climber can become congested with too many basals. That is the time to prune off a climbing cane in favor of other new, younger wood.
It's an ongoing, multi-year project. It sounds like you have a lot of rose on not much structure. My Fourth of July is easily 8 feet wide and 6 feet high. But my rose is trained as an espalier. Tell me more about your arbor.

Reply #4 of 5 posted 17 AUG 07 by rose girl
Hi, Cass. Thank you for so much good information. My arbor is an arch; it has a 4' spread from side to side x 7' high x 1' wide and serves as an entryway through a gate. The uppermost point actually swoops up to 8-9' high. I am in the heat of L.A. in Zone 19. One reason I chose Fourth of July is for its size; not too big, not too small so as to fit this arbor. It is interesting reading your description of climbers, as certainly my arbor does not allow for horizontal basal canes. I can see how a climber would work as an espalier on a wall, but how on earth to train laterals up such a narrow arbor? So you actually cut a climber (the laterals) all the way back each year? As you can guess I have the basal canes tied upright, as well.

Great rose articles you referred me to. Thank you so much! Books should be titled, "The Exciting and Scary New World of Climbing Roses."

Happy gardening, CA rose girl
Reply #5 of 5 posted 17 AUG 07 by Cass
Happy gardening to you too, CA rose girl. Take a look at Weeks Roses page on Fourth of July. Best you can hope is to become a disciplinarian with this rose and to have planted it a decent distance from the base of the structure so that you can lean the canes in toward the arch. Young roses aren't very impressive, but eventually, all those thorny canes growing out of the base will take quite a lot of space. It wouldn't hurt to start with two feet of space between the base of the arch and the rose.

Discussion id : 4-887
most recent 14 AUG 07 SHOW ALL
Initial post 25 FEB 04 by Anonymous-797
Although this rose is very resistant to mildew, it is quite susceptible to blackspot in my Pennsylvania garden. If you live in a humid area, you may want to pick another climbing rose such as Autumn Sunset, New Dawn or Westerland.

Other positives: Completely cane hardy in my garden. Great color impact.
Other negatives: Slow to establish. Did not climb for the first two years.
Reply #1 of 1 posted 14 AUG 07 by rose girl
"First year they sleep, second year they creep, third year they leap"

CA rose girl
Discussion id : 20-051
most recent 29 JUN 07 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 29 JUN 07 by GhDr
Here in zone7 the blooms hold for over a week! The leaves looked pale green when I bought it, but then it turned to a nice dark green after I put in in ground. Looks very healthy so far.
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