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'Rosier de Provins ordinaire' rose Reviews & Comments
Discussion id : 101-518
most recent 27 JUN 17 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 27 JUN 17 by Andrew from Dolton
I just uploaded a picture of this rose. Looking at other pictures of Rosa gallica 'Officinalis' on HMF the stamens are always quite clearly visible. On my rose they arn't, so maybe it has been identified wrongly. Any suggestions?
Discussion id : 72-802
most recent 7 JUL 13 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 7 JUL 13 by Jay-Jay
Please add the Dutch synonym: 'Apothekersroos'.
Discussion id : 68-158
most recent 12 NOV 12 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 12 NOV 12 by Vladimír Ježovič
Václav Větvička in his book Ruže (Roses), AVENTINUM, 2001 (ISBN 80-7151-183-8), on the page 88 writes :

Another names under which you can find this ancient cultural rose is Rosa rubra, Rosa gallica ´Maxima´ or Rosa provincialis. Seems it´s the oldest grown variety of Gallica risen in the Middle East. He prefered in Czech, name for Rosa gallica - keltská ruža (Celtic rose).
Discussion id : 68-043
most recent 10 NOV 12 SHOW ALL
Initial post 6 NOV 12 by Vladimír Ježovič
Rosa provincialis Mill. is synonymum for Rosa gallica L. ´Officinalis´ or Rosa gallica var. officinalis Ser., used by Krüssmann (1978, III., page 250), proven in France since 1310.
Reply #1 of 3 posted 10 NOV 12 by Patricia Routley
I am under the impression that province roses are centifolias and that provins roses are gallicas.

In Timber Press’ 1981 revised edition of Krussman’s 1974 book on page 77 under R. centifolia L. Krussman lists:
1629 In Parkinson, it is Red Province.
1733 Miller (for the first time?) changes “Province” into "Provence” and also gives it the Latin name of Rosa provincialis.
1753 Linnaeus gave it the name Rosa centifolia which has been retained.
1768 Miller describes the “Cabbage Rose” under the name of Rosa provincialis or Provence Rose since he regarded Linnaeus’ diagnosis (1753 & 1762) as unsatisfactory; his designation was accepted by a number of contemporary authorities.
1820 Lindley cleared up Miller’s mistake and from this point on the “Cabbage Rose” has been classified as Rosa centifolia, in accordance with Linnaeus.
Reply #2 of 3 posted 10 NOV 12 by jedmar
Krüssmann is outdated:
- Dodoens (1557) lists the "3rd rose species" as Rose de Province / Provinsche Rosen / Leibfarbige Rosen (i.e. flesh-coloured roses).
- Tabernaemontana (1591) divides these into Rosa provincialis major and Rosa provincialis minor. Gerard in 1597 calls the former Province or Damask Rose / R. provincialis sive (or) damascena / Provencie Roose / R. incarnata / Leibfarbige Roose; the latter Lesser Damask Rose / R. provincialis minor. He also introduces the Holland or Province Rose / R. Hollandica sive (or) Batava / great Holland Rose / great Province Rose.
- Clusius (1601) calls this last "Centifolia Batavica"
- Parkinson (1629) has Rosa provincialis sive damascena / great double Holland or Damask rose / Centifolia Batavica incarnata, as well as Red Province /R. provincialis rubra / Batavica Centifolia rubra. Also: Damask Province Rose.

Centifolia is therefore a subset of what the early authors called the Province / Provincialis / Damask "species".

Coming to Gallicas:

- Dodoens (1557) divides these into 2 species: Rosa rubra / R. purpurea , and the darker Tuscany-type Roses brunatre de Provins / Roses de Provins / Provinsch Roses.
- the darker type becomes Rosa holosericea in Lobelius (1591), Velvet Rose in Tabernaemontana and Velvet rose / R holosericea / deep purple Province Rose in Gerard.
- the red (deep pink) Gallica is the 2nd race in Tabernaemontana: Roth Rose / R. rubra / R. Milesia / R. purpurae
- Gerard's 2nd race is red rose / R. rubra / Rose Franche / Rose de Provins.
- Rosenberg (1628) calls these, among other names, R. Gallis Provincialis

Our Gallicas descend not only from the "Provins"-type, but also from the darker "holosericea / Province" section, which would have been a Gallica/Damask hybrid.

The later confusion arised because Provins was set equal to Province, and Lindley's lumping together of Centifolia with Provincialis, Damascena with Belgica.
Reply #3 of 3 posted 10 NOV 12 by Patricia Routley
Jedmar, we are so lucky to have you.
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