HELPMEFIND PLANTS COMMERCIAL NON-COMMERCIAL RESOURCES EVENTS PEOPLE RATINGS
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"Adélaide d'Orléans - in commerce as" rose Reviews & Comments
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Why has the heading been altered for this variety in such a way as makes it near impossible for anyone to find easily? I completely understand that if this is not the original Adelaide d'Orleans that it needs clarifying and addressing (I am all for correct identification WHERE possible), but the whole point, as other people have said themeselves, is that this variety, whatever it's true identity, is known widely to the general gardening public as "Adelaide d'Orleans", and is on sale as such. If they want to look up their newly purchased rose, or one they have seen in an open garden somewhere or somesuch, then they will be looking for THIS rose, and not the far more obscure one, even if it is the original. I know that HMF is a place for the scholarly, and I applaud that, as I learn so much from people on here myself, but I do feel it is very important to cater for all, ESPECIALLY for people who are new to roses or gardening, and need help with what is in front of them, not what is correct for the historians but unavailble to the masses. Anyone who doesn't know about the discrepency, or even those who do, are not going to naturally put "in commerce as" in the search -and so it won't come up and they won't find it. It does sort of contradict the point of HELP ME FIND! May I suggest that the "in commerce as" is removed from the title, but is retained and explained more clearly in the description.
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I think it would be alright to have the current title, IF the search function worked the way it is supposed to work. Unfortunately, it doesn't.
Using the "contains" option along with the search term "d'Orléans" yields no results. Obviously it should give results that include this rose, and the original, and several other roses which contain "d'Orléans" as part of their name.
For that matter, the "begins with" and "ends with" options also give no results. They should at least pick up this one: http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.76120.1
...but they don't. The inescapable conclusion is that the HMF search function is borked.
If this can be fixed, it would also fix the other problem you mention: non-experts potentially being unable to find this rose.
I'd suggest going a bit further, and including synonyms that have a plain e instead of the (technically correct) e-acute, for the simple reason that a lot of people will likely omit the diacritical mark. Not everyone is up to speed on the details of French spelling.
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I totally agree with you, the search seems sometimes to be, shall we say, "limited" in its capabilites to perform quite simple tasks.
In this particular case, I think I may have discovered what the problem is - the quotation marks in the title are as follows:
"Adelaide d'Orleans - in commerce as"
I think if the first pair of quotes was moved, so it now read
Adelaide d'Orleans - "in commerce as"
the search engine would be able to pick up on the A of Adelaide, whereas it is currently fooled or blinded by the quote marks being first. I would be interested to see if it made any difference.
p.s. 2 things; firstly, I love your pictures by the way, and secondly, is "borked" an Aussie term?!
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Thanks re the pics.
"Borked" is commonly used among coders, but I have no idea who invented it. As far as I know it was originally "borken", which is a common typo of "broken". I suppose "borked" just seemed a natural progression from there.
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Thanks for explaining that to me! I have learnt something - and I will have to add it to my vocabulary!
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I just tried the search again. Although it fails when presented with d'Orléans, it works perfectly if fed Orléans. Orleans works too, so it looks like they've already implemented the idea of using a basic e in synonyms, which is handy.
The only drawback is that Orléans brings up more strays to confuse the results. If it could be made to handle d'Orléans that would be better. It looks like the search function gets broken by apostrophes.
Adelaide, with or without the e-acute, will also find this rose if the "contains" option is used.
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If, like me, you are rubbish at spelling the HMF search/lookup can be absolutely brutal if you don't spell the word perfectly.
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On my screen, there is a problem in that when one types in
Adelaide d'Orlean
the three names come up.
When one adds that one little s, as in
Adelaide d'Orleans
we only get the HP and the sempervirens versions.
So the glitch may be in the s.
If one cannot find the rose in the normal way, then using just one word in CONTAINS instead of BEST MATCHES will usually bring results.
Whether one types in an accent (diacritical mark), or not, HelpMeFind will usually find the rose.
e.g. I typed in Helene and came up with:
Hélène (hybrid multiflora, Lambert, 1897)
Helene (hybrid tea, Vecera)
Brutal? Not on my screen! HelpMeFind has brought us out of the dark ages of rose research.
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This is interesting. Adelaide d'Orleans works with "best matches". But d'Orleans fails completely with "contains", or with "ends with". So it's not just the "s" that is causing glitches.
Edit: Although as you say, Adelaide d'Orleans only brings up two roses, and not this one. So yes, the s seems to be causing a glitch in this case. Which is distinctly odd.
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I imagine that Admin would welcome volunteers with the technical skills to unbork it.
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I imagine they would, but unfortunately my skills don't include that.
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Don't think for one moment I don't appreciate what HMF is all about, but I do find the search to be erratic in some cases. On the one hand I can type in a name exactly but say miss one letter out or hit one wrong key, and it won't work, and yet on another occasion I might type something in phonetically because somebody has told me about a vareity that I haven't seen written down, and try that and it brings it up ok, sometimes to my complete surprise! - I don't get why it is so up and down like this, but I am getting used to it! This thread has taught me that I should use the searches other than "best matches" more often though, so thank you all for that.
I can't help but think it is the presence of the quotes that is making this problem with Adelaide; if they were removed surely the title, EVEN with the - in commerce as bit, would come up in any search that contained Adelaide d'Orleans simply because it did before the changes were made. I still think personally that the arguments over the name and it's validity should be in the description's text, and not in the title.
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It could even be something as stupid as the hyphon; computers and searches sometimes get very upset about certain icons and symbols when used in what they consider is the wrong place. Maybe that is throwing it off?
Anyway, to a point it is immaterial what is causing the problem. The thing is that you should be able to find it easily - and currently you can't. Therefore the listing should be changed. Simple. It is such a good and beautiful rose that is easily obtainable- it shouldn't be hidden away and so difficult to find.
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Reply
#13 of 13 posted
2 APR 17 by
flodur
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I agree, the title "as in commerce" is not correct, since you may buy the real 'Adélaïde d'Orléans', as you can see it in "Choix des Plus Belles Fleurs" by Redouté, in Germany from "Rosenhof Schultheis". (Probably from some more nurseries). I have seen the wrong one several times in France and never understood why it was labelled or sold as 'Adélaïde d'Orléans'. French nurseries or rosarias should know! The real one is for sure a sempervirens, no genetic analyses are needed - the result is often wrong, since the input is wrong and the scientists are normally no rose specialist, but everybody takes the results as correct....
Anyhow, HMF should write 'Adélaïde d'Orléans', the search function will find it, even if you type adelaide dorleans! Without the é and ï it would be a city in South Australia. Redouté is still correct today!
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While re-reading through the ARS Encyclopedia of Roses, I happened upon a little tidbit about 'Adelaide d'Orleans' on page 20:
"Recent DNA tests by Professor Maurice Jay in Lyon have shown that its parents were 'R. sempervirens' X 'Old Blush'".
So I did some googling, and found this:
http://historicroses.org/index.php?id=40
Within it is another mention of the testing which found 'Old Blush' to be the pollen parent. They deduced it as a likely possibility since it was "new on the scene" and likely planted in the garden, then subjected it to the paternity test. They lucked out, since there apparently was quite an extensive collection through which they'd have to go to find the daddy otherwise.
:-)
~Christopher
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Thanks AquaEyes. The reference is added. Obviously they've tested the rose in commerce as 'Adelaide d'Orleans'.
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I wonder if the semi-double rose we all grow as 'Adelaide d'Orleans' could be 'Venusta Pendula'? The last part of the name certainly fits my rose.
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