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'Archduke Charles' rose Reviews & Comments
Discussion id : 48-680
most recent 30 JUL 19 SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 11 OCT 10 by Patricia Routley
In Brisbane in the past few days, I stood with Jennie O'Brien Lutton in front of a large bush (6 feet high?) of "Rita Petersen". (The bush was labelled Peterson, but the references seem to show that it may have been Petersen) There were two fairly distinct flowers on the bush, light pink flowers with a darker outer circle, and other flowers with the main colour being a dark pink. The bush looked more like a tea, than a china, to me. Very smooth wood between mature brown prickles (the older were gray) and many canes were thornless. The pedicel was prickly and the receptacle was long with no narrowing at the top where it met the bud. The opening bud was a very dark pink.

For the moment HelpMeFind has kept "Rita Petersen" as being a clone of 'Archiduc Charles', but if there are any other Australian thoughts that it may be something else entirely, it is a easy matter to separate this foundling into its own file. The following is from a private email to me from Jennie O'Brien Lutton dated September 8, 2006. As Jennie has a great interest in this rose, I know she would agree with this public sharing of part of the history of "Rita Petersen". She said:

I wrote to all and invited them to meet at the heritage area in New Farm Park. This garden was designed by Heritage Roses in Australia members in about 1990, and most of the roses were supplied by them. Probably in 1996 or 1997, a city council gardener, Colin Robards, was in charge of the Heritage area. He showed a great interest and made a big effort to get plans drawn and roses labelled. Rita Mortiss (HRIA member and one of the team originaly responsible for the heritage Rose planting in the park) and I, undertook to provide the correct details for the labels. We spent a lot of time double and triple checking references and discussing which we would choose when there was some difference in information. There are a few roses with labels like "Herston Rose" and "Sandgate Rose", these being the suburbs in which the old rose was found and propagated. We decided to label "Rita Petersen" with her name, even though we could find no record of it anywhere. Several people had told us it was "Rita Petersen". Roly Kent (now deceased), long time president of the QRS had actually told Rita Mortiss the name of the rose. Another of our long term members, Lionel Chitts, who was also part of the original HRIA team in the Heritage Area at New Farm Park, had the name from other sources. I had been told by a very elderly lady with a strong accent (probably Greek or Italian) over her fence that "everyone grows this Rita". The first time we saw anything about Rita Peterson in print, apart from Sue Zwar's comments about New Farm Park, was the reprint of Editor Stewart's article in the journal. We then felt that our decision to label the rose with the name had been the correct decision, even if the name of the rose was not proved. Editor Stewarts comments are interesting. Was General Galleni a popular rose at that time? Could he possibly not have seen it enough to positively identify it, or was he just repeating the text from Heers catalogue? There are certainly some similarities - the main being muddled and variable colour. Both have very variable blooms, size, colour shape etc even simultaneously However the General is red and creamy in the centre and obviously a tea rose, and Rita is red and pinky centred and obviously a china rose. I do not grow Rita. The plant we labelled "Rita Peterson" is quite common in Brisbane. I know quite a few places where it grows, mostly in older suburbs. There are 3 or 4 plants in a garden in the next block from me, but the people who live there know nothing about the garden.Most of our members could tell you where there are plants near them.
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Reply #1 of 18 posted 13 OCT 11 by IanM
Comparing the many photos I've seen of "Rita Petersen" with the 'Archduc Charles' in my garden, it seems to me that "Rita Petersen" consistently has some flowers that turn a very dark pink to almost red colour. Furthermore, this becomes a fairly solid colour throughout the flower. My 'Archduc Charles' never gets that intensity of colour. Rather it is typical for each flower to possess two or three shades of pink, with the lowest shade being almost white, and the highest about the colour and intensity of Old Blush. In fact someone once told me that an old name for this rose was "Three Colour China" or "3-in-1 Rose". Furthermore I have never seen flowers of solid deep pink to red on my plant. The flower color is either a fairly solid light pink or variable as I've described above. So I must ask, could this occasional dark, solid flower be a characteristic typical of the clone known as "Rita Petersen", but not typical of 'Archduc Charles'?

I live in Australia and would be interested in some cuttings of "Rita Petersen" to compare with my 'Archduc Charles'.
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Reply #2 of 18 posted 13 OCT 11 by Patricia Routley
Brent Dickerson lists a pink hybrid china 'A Trois Fleurs' (Three-Flowering Rose), breeder unknown, prior to 1838, in his 'Old Roses: the Master List', 2007, p14.

I have seen the big bush of "Rita Petersen" just once in New Farm Park in Brisbane and cannot comment on the colour. There seemed to be a concensus that "Rita Petersen" and 'Archiduc Charles' were the same rose, but it would be really great if more people could grow them side by side. I note you live in Queensland and perhaps you could contact Bonita Cattell for cuttings. I am sure she will know where to obtain them.
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Reply #3 of 18 posted 14 OCT 11 by IanM
Thanks Patricia. I've heard it called "Three in One China" or "Three Flowered China" on more than one occasion so this was evidently an old name for it. So it is possible that one of the clones in Australia may actually be 'A Trois Fleurs' (not to be confused with the single-flowered Rubiginosa hybrid by that same name). I notice HelpMeFind does not yet have an entry for the China rose by that name.
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Reply #4 of 18 posted 17 JUL 19 by HubertG
This is an old thread but I thought it best to post this here. In an old Brisbane newspaper 'The Queenslander' for 26 June, 1909 on page 8 there is a good article on roses and in the paragraph recommending buds for buttonholes I found this reference to "Miss Rita Peterson". It is from "A paper read by Mr. George Watkins at the Queensland Horticultural Society":

"Another Queensland variety may be included in these - namely Miss Rita Peterson, a sport from Penelope."

Of course it may or may not be true, but at least it places this rose at a relatively early date.

I also found this advertisement for "H. A. Petersen Ltd, Seedsman & Nurserymen" (George St, Brisbane) in 'The Daily Mercury' (Mackay, QLD), 13 Oct 1923, page 13:

"ROSE TREES. [ ... ] Petersen's trees are selected for their suitability to the Queensland climate. Grown in the Model Nursery at Kuraby, they come to you clean, healthy and true to name. [ ... ] Here is a choice Collection [ ... ] Miss Rita Petersen (deep rose)."

So it seems that the correct name is "Miss Rita Petersen" , and if it's a sport of 'Penelope' or of some other rose it looks most likely to have originated in their nursery and named after the owner's daughter (I'm guessing).
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Reply #5 of 18 posted 17 JUL 19 by HubertG
Might it be better to have a separate file for 'Miss Rita Petersen'?

From 'The Brisbane Courier' newspaper, 10 Oct 1908, page 4:

"A New Rose.
The new rose "Penelope" has been well established in many local gardens, and during the present season has developed some excellent blooms. Already another variety has been raised, the credit for which is due to Mr. H. A. Petersen, of Hendra. It is a distinct sport from "Penelope" and has been named "Miss Rita Petersen." Specimens exhibited this week mark it as a fine garden and decorative rose. It is a deep rose colour, shading from cerise to dark red, inner petals coppery; outer petals well curved, shading from lemon cream at base to rich claret towards edge. It is said to be a very profuse flowerer of the tea variety, Its growth is vigorous, its foliage deep green, and it is declared to be free from mildew."
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Reply #6 of 18 posted 18 JUL 19 by Patricia Routley
I wonder if H. A. Petersen Ld., George St., Brisbane (advertising in 1923) is the same, or connected with
Petersen’s Acacia Florist, Queen Street, (see 1929 reference for both Penelope and “Rita Petersen”).
I have the 1929 catalogue for Petersen’s Acacia Florist but it mentions no other family connected businesses. I note there is also a C. Peterson {sic] (1931 ref) who had a nursery at Kuraby (1923 ref)

I have added the 1908, 1909 and 1929 references to the ‘Rita Petersen’ page.
Mr. Watkins is probably the same man for whom the 1890 tea rose ‘G. W. Watkins’ was named for.

File note more or less for my own clarification.
I believe all ‘Penelope’ in Australia have turned out to be the tea ‘Hugo Roller’.
“Rita Petersen” in Queensland were noted to be the china ‘Archiduc Charles’.
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Reply #7 of 18 posted 18 JUL 19 by HubertG
Yes, Petersen's nursery and the Acacia florists were the same family. I saw an advert that mentions the Acacia florists by name. I'll find it again.
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Reply #8 of 18 posted 18 JUL 19 by HubertG
This is from 'The Brisbane Courier', 25 Sep 1926, page 5:

"PUBLIC NOTICE.
Mr. Harry A. Petersen, Mrs. M. E. Petersen, and Miss Rita Petersen, who have been associated with Bermuda Art Florists and Petersen's Seeds Ltd., Queen-street, Brisbane, for many years, have now removed to the Acacia Art Florists in O.K. Building, Queen-st., Brisbane, opp- Chapmans Ltd. Mrs. M. E. Petersen Is head floral artist, assisted by Miss Rita Petersen, and Mr. H. A. Petersen is the manager. For Flowers, Seeds, Plants, and Floral Tributes, Acacia Art Florists offer the most modern service. Country orders' given special attention.
TELEPHONE, CENTRAL 7792..
AFTER OFFICE HOURS, M3897."
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Reply #9 of 18 posted 18 JUL 19 by Margaret Furness
We need cuttings from the Tea-like Rita Petersen, especially if it is an unstable sport, in which case we might get a true Penelope. The New Farm Park rose garden lost a lot in the flooding a few years ago. I will try to contact IanM , Lionel and Jennie.
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Reply #11 of 18 posted 20 JUL 19 by Patricia Routley
HubertG, I have scoured my computer and find many reports from Queenslanders who found “Rita Petersen” to be the same rose as ‘Archiduc Charles’. I feel that the Petersen family complimented their daughter on one of the more variable blooms, for which ‘Archiduc Charles’ is known.

Margaret’s thoughts of a “tea-like Rita Petersen” came from my 2010 comment when I thought the bush in New Farm Park looked more tea-like than a china. My impression was quite understandable when one looks at Billy’s 2010 photo no. 160921, and compares it to the miserable chinas growing in my cool climate garden.
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Reply #12 of 18 posted 20 JUL 19 by HubertG
There are a few scenarios possible here, but I guess they all depend on whether the "Rita Petersen" that looks like 'Archduke Charles' is in fact the original 'Miss Rita Petersen'. How certain is this?
It seems very strange to me that a nurseryman would name a rose after his daughter and say it was a sport of 'Penelope' when it was in fact not that. I think it would have been questioned or noticed at the time had that been the case.
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Reply #10 of 18 posted 18 JUL 19 by Patricia Routley
Brilliant, HubertG. Now we know who the lady was.
Could we have more input from others on the rose we all saw in Queensland?
Did it end up being the china ‘Archiduc Charles’ (I did note one enterprising person with a pair of nail clippers hovering over the bush)
More info please Margaret on the “tea-like Rita Petersen”.
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Reply #13 of 18 posted 20 JUL 19 by HubertG
Also, are the centre petals of "Rita Petersen" ever coppery like in the original description of 'Miss Rita Petersen? Or do the outer petals have a "lemon cream" shade at their base?
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Reply #14 of 18 posted 20 JUL 19 by HubertG
I found an 1888 newspaper article which shows that 'Archduke Charles' was available in Alfred Williams' nursery at Brisbane. This at least establishes that 'Archduke Charles' would have been growing around Brisbane for a long time, but it also makes it looks less likely (in my mind at least) that 'Miss Rita Petersen' was not a sport of 'Penelope' (John Williams' creation) and some sport of 'Archduke Charles'.
There is also an 1889 reference to 'Archduke Charles' being exhibited by Bennett of the Standard Nursery at Homebush, Sydney.

From 'The Queenslander' 19 May 1888:
"Among the Nurseries. By Our Agricultural Reporter.
GREEN HILL, RUNCORN.
Mr. Alfred Williams's nursery is well known for its fruit trees and roses [ ... ] Roses are a speciality at Green Hill, for they are the hobby of the proprietor, and he is constantly obtaining the newest varieties from the Southern colonies and from Europe, over 160 having been thus added to his already numerous collection during the past two years. Among these there were in flower at the time of my visit:— [ ... ] Archduke Charles (hybrid China), a profuse bearer of variegated flowers which open rose colour and gradually change to crimson, often striped with white."
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Reply #15 of 18 posted 20 JUL 19 by Margaret Furness
The "Tea-like" comment came from Patricia's initial observation. I've been told that the plant at New Farm Park, and others around, match Archduke Charles.
I don't think we should assume that Penelope didn't have a colour sport.
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Reply #16 of 18 posted 20 JUL 19 by HubertG
I agree, I don't think we can assume that 'Penelope' didn't sport.
I do think that there should be a new separate file for 'Miss Rita Petersen' since we have a date of introduction, breeder and parentage - and leave the "Rita Petersen" as a synonym in the 'Archduke Charles' file for now until more information is available.

Regarding Editor Stewart thinking it was 'General Gallieni' - I found a couple of references in the old newspapers of exhibitions where 'General Gallieni' was shown and where Stewart presided as a judge, so he must have had more than just a passing acquaintance with GG. There's also a vague reference to Stewart sending in a 'catalogue' of the latest roses from Box Hill. It doesn't specifically state Stewart had a nursery but that was the impression I received.
It's hard to imagine someone familiar with 'General Gallieni' mistaking 'Archduke Charles' for it. Just my two cents.
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Reply #17 of 18 posted 26 JUL 19 by Patricia Routley
It would appear that “Rita Petersen” was known as ‘General Gallieni’ from at least 1922 until c1939.
I do not know just when “Rita Petersen” began to be recognised as ‘Archiduc Charles’.

1922. Hazlewood catalogue carried General Gallieni. They said a synonym was ‘'Rita Petersen”. They did not list these roses in subsequent catalogues but Hazlewood was not too fond of tea roses.

1938 T. A. Stewart, was the editor of the ‘Australian Rose Annual’ from 1928 to 1946.
He was a great friend of Alister Clark who named ‘Editor Stewart’ after him.
T. A. Stewart was the man who said “I was amused, however, to see our old friend General Gallieni labelled everywhere as Rita Peterson.” Mr. Stewart would have well known what General Gallieni was like and recognised it well enough to say so.

The man who had the nursery in Box Hill, Victoria was T. G. Stewart.

1939 Heers, Pacific Nurseries, Queensland, catalogue did not list “Archiduc Charles, but carried Hugo Roller and General Gallieni, adding a note that General Gallieni was also known as “Miss Rita Petersen”. He may well have added this note after consulting with T. A. Stewart. I have no earlier Heers catalogues. By 1948 Heers had dropped the “Miss Rita Petersen” synonym.
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Reply #18 of 18 posted 30 JUL 19 by HubertG
Hazlewood's did list 'General Gallieni' in their 1938 and 1939 catalogues but in the secondary list of good varieties still available but not generally well known. 'Penelope' is also on the same list in both catalogues, but there is no mention of a Rita Petersen in either,
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Discussion id : 117-462
most recent 8 JUL 19 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 8 JUL 19 by AquaEyes
Available from - Foundation Plant Services, UC Davis
http://fps.ucdavis.edu/roseselections.cfm
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Discussion id : 102-956
most recent 20 JUL 17 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 20 JUL 17 by Give me caffeine
Well, several months later and I have to change my opinion. Archduke Charles has been looking great over winter. Even better than 'Old Blush', which had been outperforming Charles previously. I'll have to wait and see how it goes with more time, but it's looking a lot more promising.

This is another old rose that seems to give particularly good blooms in climates that have mild winters.

Edit: Makes a reasonable cut flower too, at least in the cooler seasons. Will last for a few days before it starts looking manky.
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Discussion id : 98-227
most recent 29 MAR 17 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 29 MAR 17 by Give me caffeine
Updated information:

Honestly, I'm not that impressed with this one at the moment.
Short on leaves. Unimpressive form. Pretty meh all round.

Unlikely to be a long term resident.
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