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'Mademoiselle de Sombreuil' rose Reviews & Comments
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Is the given frosthardiness zone right for this Tea?
In a very nice/sweet book I read (ROZEN Natuurlijk p.43 from Olivier de Vleeschhouwer, ISBN 90-215-4420-2 translated by Marijke Stutz-de Ridder version of Rosiers Simplissimes) is stated by the author, that this rose needs winterprotection.
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#1 of 1 posted
18 DEC 12 by
 jedmar
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Zone 4b was definitely incorrect. You can see in the garden listing that it seems to grow in Zone 6a, but I would not try it below 7a.
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but what???
*Magazine (Nov 2006)
The ARS Classification Committee... concluded that the rose sold in the United States and elsewhere as 'Sombreuil' is not the same as the cultivar named 'Mlle de Sombreuil' originally introduced as a Tea rose by M. Robert in 1850. The cultivar currently grown and purchased in the United States under the name 'Sombreuil' is, in fact, a Large-Flowered Climber introduced into the United States, circa 1880, that does not have the typical Tea fragrance, shrub growth form, and the winter tenderness of the 1850 cultivar.
To correct this confusion, the Classification Committee has ruled that the name 'Mlle de Sombreuil' ...will be retained as the AEN for the 1850 shrub-form Tea, and that the name 'Sombreuil' be used as the AEN for the LCl....*
instead of clearing misunderstandings, the ARS is even performing them by calling "mademoiselle de sombreuil" the cultivar that once had been introduced as 'sombreuil'...?
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#1 of 9 posted
19 SEP 08 by
Cass
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The ARS is clarifying that the Tea, variously known as Mlle de Sombreuil or just Sombreuil, will have the Exhibition and Registered Name 'Mlle de Sombreuil.'
The large-flowered climber that appeared in commerce in the late 1940's or 1950's in the USA with a bogus parentage under the name Sombreuil is to be exhibited and registered with the name 'Sombreuil' and is a Large-Flowered Climber, not a Tea or Climbing Tea. In my opinion the only disservice done by the ARS is giving credibility to the date circa 1880 for the LCl.
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#2 of 9 posted
19 SEP 08 by
jedmar
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Cass, there is one more point: The rose of Robert was never historically called 'Mlle de Sombreuil', but always 'Sombreuil'. ARS has invented a new name, too. It might be in the interest of distinction, but this sets a dangerous precedence: I have been lately thinking of re-introducing 'Madame Park's Yellow'!
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#3 of 9 posted
19 SEP 08 by
Cass
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If true - I don't doubt you, I simply have not iooked into it apart from searching for the name Sombreuil in older literature - the ARS was guided or misguided by the OGR community in the USA, which lobbied for this particular name change. That community specifically wanted the commercial growers, the ARS and the public to stop calling the LCl a climbing Tea, which it most clearly is not.
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#4 of 9 posted
19 SEP 08 by
Cass
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Based on what I could recover from Google, which admittedly is not as thorough as one would want, it seems that all the 19th century references show the name as 'Sombreuil,' and not Mlle de Sombreuil. I found a single obscure reference in the USA using 'Madame de Sombreuil.'
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#5 of 9 posted
19 SEP 08 by
kai-eric
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indeed.
'mademoiselle de sombreuil' is presumed of being an historical or even anecdotical individue , not the rose...
i must agree to jedmar that imposing a new name to a historical plant, would mean rebaptize her in a misunderstanding kind ...and rather increasing than eliminating confusion.
sorry about the fact that somewhat exhibitional interest has overlayed academical clearance.
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I've uploaded two portraits of 'Sombreuil' - one from Nestel’s Rosengarten (1867) labelled 'Mlle de Sombreuil' and the other from Hariot's Le Livre d’Or des Roses (1903) - plate 12, that K.L. Stock 'Rose books' says is 'Sombreuil'.
There is a third portrait (1857) in Le Journal des Roses et des Vergers Revue des Jardins (ed Cherpin) that can be seen reproduced in BC Dickerson's The Old Rose Adventurer - also labelled 'Sombreuil'.
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#7 of 9 posted
20 SEP 08 by
kai-eric
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thank you billy!
i saw the anna-peters-gouache in peter harkness' "the roses" where he conceals nestel having called her 'mademoiselle de sombreuil'.
can you ensure that hariot's 'le livre d'or des roses' as well as dickersons 'the old rose adventurer' are showing the tea rose 'sombreuil', not the alba of same name?
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The earliest portrait from Le Journal des Roses et des Vergers Revue des Jardins (ed Cherpin) reproduced in BC Dickerson's The Old Rose Adventurer is clearly labelled "Thé Sombreuil" so there's no doubt that this is the Tea.
I don't have a copy of the text from Hariot's Le Livre d’Or des Roses - perhaps someone else has access and can check - but think it is almost certainly the Tea. (Pl 11 in the series is Niphetos, Pl 13 is Souvenir d'un Ami).
There are a number of roses like this that are seen in the early literature and catalogues with and without their 'Mlle' and with no clear indication of whether the breeder/ introducer considered one name more correct than the other. 'Franziska Kruger' / 'Mlle Franziska Kruger' is another that seems to have been introduced with the 'Mlle' but then only used sporadically.
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#9 of 9 posted
21 OCT 10 by
Rockhill
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There is an inaccuracy in the Anna Peters plate under the entry for Mlle de Sombreuil. Nestel rebuked the artist for wrongly showing the buds on nodding pedicels as in reality they stand upright. Perhaps the specimens had wilted by the time Anna came to paint them. This comment is in the text opposite the plate in Nestel's book.
This is posted by Rockhill
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Plase note that La Roseraie du désert is selling Huntingdon La biche under this name not Mlle la Sombreuil. We have the correct La biche from L'Hay and we have 3 Mlle la Sombreuils (named this way) all slightly different from L'Hay, Sangerhausan and Tete d'or finally we have the Sombreuil (false Colonial white) from everywhere, hope this isn't too confusing
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We've updated their listing.
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Initial post
27 JAN 10 by
Unregistered Guest
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Mlle Blanche Lafitte (HybB) appears to me to be identical to what I grow as La Biche from ARE, and identified to actually be Mlle de Sombreuil. Do you see Tea/Noisette characteristics or perhaps Bourbon-Tea? The likeness was particularly striking on photos at Sacremento Cemetery web pages.
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