'scottclifton' comments & questions

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scottclifton

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Publication / Article / VideoGrafted Hybrid Teas versus Own-Root Roses. most recent 30 MAY 09 SHOW ALL

Initial post 22 JUN 06 by bmarie

Reply #1 of 7 posted 23 JUN 06 by HMF supporting member

RoseBlush

bmarie........

I live in an old gold mining town in northern California. Yesterday, I spent several hours "rose rustling" in a near by ghost town. Those roses were well over 100 years old.

The reason budded roses have a shorter life span is that most of them have been budded onto virused rootstock. That said, there are some roses that cannot be grown successfully on their own roots. With roses, it's hard to make any generalization because you can count on there being a rose out there that will make a liar out of you.

My personal experience leads me to believe that roses, both grafted and own root, have a longer expected lifetime than the article or book you mentioned in your post.

Smiles,

Lyn, helpmefind.com

Reply #2 of 7 posted 25 JUL 06 by Lulu

I don't think that this article is accurate unless there were extremes of climate or something else involved. I am sure many people growing roses that read this will write in to tell you of many roses that they have had for years that are grafted. My garden is only young but my three year old roses are still doing fine. Lulu	REPLY

Reply #7 of 7 posted 30 MAY 09 by Mylissa

I am the author and the article is accurate and "stems" from my experience of over 40 years playing with dirt. I have gardened in Texas and Missouri, two of the harshest climates on earth and was also a florist who tended a small nursery. I had good friends who owned an own-root rose nursery in Texas and shared their experiences and shared their roses. I currently live on three acres here in the Midwest and have over 45 roses... NONE are grafted... Those died long ago... Nevertheless, if you like to putter, spray, nurter and be a babysitter aka slave with your grafted teas, and vow to keep the grafted rose business alive and well, then feel free... have fun and enjoy, but please, if you disagree, follow up and share your experiences a' la contrary... I would love to hear about them!

Reply #3 of 7 posted 25 JUL 06 by scottclifton

Could you please reference the article you had read. I would like to see which varieties were tested and what environmental variables were present. A 3 to 5 year life span seems incredibly short for a plant (a hardy variety) that has been given the proper care and winter protection. I have about a 50/50 ratio of own root/grafted roses in my garden and have been unable to draw any general conclusions about how how one type performs over the other. I have several varieties where I have both own root and grafted plants and have observed different results for different varieties. With so many variables in growing roses, I consider any insight helpful. Thanks for your contribution! -- Scott

Reply #4 of 7 posted 26 JUL 06 by bmarie

Hi, unfortunately I can't find the article where I read that statement. I didn't make it up though. It makes sense to me that if the rose is the kind that can be grown on its own roots that it will be stronger because the graft is a possible source of weakness. I am not an expert, just making a comment.	REPLY

Reply #5 of 7 posted 26 JUL 06 by scottclifton

Thanks for tour reply! I was just curious to see how the author made the comparison and which varieties were compared. I have heard many varying opinions on the budded vs own-root subject, so I try to learn all I can about the pros and cons of each type and try to apply that knowledge to selecting the best type for a variety I want to grow. I appreciate that you and the other posters on HMF take the time to share their knowledge and opinions.

Thanks Again! -- Scott

Reply #6 of 7 posted 28 JUL 06 by Lulu

Hi Scott,

When you plant the graft below the soil level the rose often roots from the graft as well as having the roots from the rootstock so you get the added strength of both. The Yates Roses book that I have just been reading, [Yates is a large company in Australia supplying garden products and seeds] has stated that grafted roses can live for 20 yrs given good growing practices. I have several roses in my garden that I have grown cuttings from so have both types of the same bush. My tea rose Duchess de Brabant does much better, in my opinion, on its own roots than the grafted one and so far my David Austins on their own roots are doing very well also but it is too soon for me to know if they will do better than the original grafted ones. We now have some nurseries here putting cutting grown roses on the market but it is difficult for them to get enough quickly to supply the demand as obviously they take longer to be marketable than the grafted varieties. Also some roses are very hard to strike especially many Hybrid Teas. Try striking your own if you haven't yet as it is a lot of fun and you can get good information on how to do it from this site and others on the net.

Happy gardening, Lulu

What is this ? most recent 15 JUL 06 SHOW ALL

Initial post 11 JUL 06 by Unregistered Guest

This rose has literally been rescued from bulldozers razing my neighborhood for a redevelopment project. This is my first attempt at slipping roses. It's not Mr. Lincoln or Papa Meilland as I have those two. Any ideas? One suggestion was Etoile de Hollande, but the branches and leaves of this specimen are quite blue with incredibly fragrant blossoms. Thank you--erlygrl (Marcy T.)	REPLY

Reply #1 of 17 posted 11 JUL 06 by Jody

Hi Marcy, great job on rescuing the roses from the bulldozer. They are tearing up my rural neighborhood too, so I know how you must feel. Can you get us a pix of this rose to help ID it? Thanks Jody	REPLY

Reply #2 of 17 posted 11 JUL 06

Reply #3 of 17 posted 11 JUL 06 by erlygrl

Reply #4 of 17 posted 11 JUL 06 by Jody

Hi Marcy, thanks for the photo. a guess might be Chrysler Imperial or Alec's Red , except for the blue foilage. but this looks really dark red. is it the pix or is it very dark? There is a rose Black Beauty. I have a pix of it and it is VERY dark. Maybe a petal count would help? Good luck , please let us know if you ID this and again that's really great you were able to save this rose!! Jody	REPLY

Reply #7 of 17 posted 13 JUL 06 by erlygrl

Thanks so much for your comments. Yes, the foilage is very dark and in the mature plant almost bluish. I have two more buds on the bush so when the roses bloom, I'll count the petals. Marcy.	REPLY

Reply #11 of 17 posted 13 JUL 06 by erlygrl

Could you upload the Black Beauty picture please? the pictures on the web look right. This is a very dark rose and the leaves and stems are very purplish, bluish. Thanks!	REPLY

Reply #5 of 17 posted 13 JUL 06 by Wendy C

Have you considered Ingrid Bergman? It rather reminds me of her. Best of Luck	REPLY

Reply #6 of 17 posted 13 JUL 06 by Jody

Wendy has a sharp eye. It does look like Ingrid Bergman, a beautiful rose. Jody	REPLY

Reply #8 of 17 posted 13 JUL 06 by erlygrl

Thanks so much. I can't wait for the next two blossoms to bloom so we'll have more clues. Will count petals. Marcy	REPLY

Reply #9 of 17 posted 13 JUL 06 by Meschuee

What a beautiful rose. It's a very luck plant to have you rescue it. I have "Etoile de Hollande", newly planted, but no blooms yet.Penny.	REPLY

Reply #10 of 17 posted 13 JUL 06 by erlygrl

I looked at pictures of Ingmar Bergman, but the info attached to it says it is not fragrant. This rose is incredibly fragrant--that's what brought be to the abandoned house where the parent lived. I looked at pictures of Black Beauty and that might be a possibility but I don't know what it smells like.

This rose is a Knock Out in the fragrance department. Can't wait to see your Etoile de Hollande fotos when the blooms blossom. Marcy

Reply #12 of 17 posted 13 JUL 06 by Jody

Marcy, the photo on this site says Ingrid is strong fragrance. and if you go to the photos tab where there are multiple photos, there is one that looks identical. Ck out row 3, #6, doesn't that look like your rose??Jody	REPLY

Reply #13 of 17 posted 13 JUL 06 by Wendy C

When my Ingrid Bergman blooms I can't keep my nose away from her. A very nice rose scent.	REPLY

Reply #14 of 17 posted 13 JUL 06 by erlygrl

Thanks so much, Jody--this does look like my rose. One site I looked at said no fragrance but the pictures and the descriptions of fragrance from others makes me think, that with all your help, I now know what the rose's name is. Thanks everyone. I'll repost when the two blooms are ready. The older plant had very upright blooms with long stems similar to one of the other photos.	REPLY

Reply #15 of 17 posted 13 JUL 06 by Meschuee

I look forward to hearing what you decide about the lovely red rose. I'll post photos of "Etoile de Hollande" (someone said it means Cross of Hollande) when she decides to flower. :) Penny	REPLY

Reply #16 of 17 posted 14 JUL 06 by Lulu

Before you settle on Ingrid Bergman for your rose I think you should look at Oklahoma which has the same breeding as Mr Lincoln and Papa Mielland. It is very dark with dark foliage and a magnificent perfume. It has 40 to 55 petals. My rose books say that Ingrid Bergman has not a hint of blue and not much perfume. Lulu	REPLY

Reply #17 of 17 posted 14 JUL 06 by erlygrl

Thanks for your comments. I definitely will be counting the petals and the fragrance of my rose is amazing. Much more powerful than Mr. Lincoln or Papa Mielland.	REPLY

Reply #18 of 17 posted 15 JUL 06 by scottclifton

Based on how you describe the scent, I would guess that your rose is a Mirandy descendant. Mirandy itself has a very strong fragrance and every rose I have encountered where Mirandy is part of the parentage has had a similar fragrance. Chrysler Imperial, Mister Lincoln and Oklahoma have Mirandy in their lineage. Ingrid Bergman is fragrant, but has a lighter, sweeter smell than Mister Lincoln.How tall is the bush itself? Oklahoma is a ~ 7' tall and can be a bit leggy. Ingrid Bergman is a very short (~3' tall), compact bush for a hybrid tea. Also, how long do the blooms last on the bush? A unique characteristic of Ingrid Bergman and Crimson Bouquet (one parent was Ingrid Bergman) is their outstanding bloom life. I have had single blooms on both of these roses to last over three weeks on the bush. I hope this helps. -- Scott

GardenScott and Marlene's Rose Garden most recent 7 JUN 06 HIDE POSTS

Initial post 5 JUN 06 by dhukill

You should be very proud of your Roses. They are very nice. Do you typically buy your new plantings from a single source? I just purchased 10 from J & P and was very satisfied. I would prefer to purchase from smaller family growers. Any suggestions?	REPLY

Reply #1 of 5 posted 5 JUN 06 by scottclifton

Thank you for your comments. Many of my new plantings have come from J&P and Witherspoon Rose Culture. Most of the J&P roses were purchased online and were shipped bareroot. In my opinion, these are very good roses, and most have been true to form. The only problem I have with these are the wild nature of the canes. Too many cross and need to be removed before planting. The roses purchased from Witherspoon are exceptional. Most only have three or four canes, but their placement is perfect and the bud unions (most of their roses are grafted onto Dr. Huey) are very good. I have also bought several inexpensive roses from Home Depot. These tend to be above average performers in our garden despite their $5-10 price. The bareroot J&P roses available at Lowes have been a real dissapointment. Almost all have been poor performers. I tried some of their bareroots in cardboard boxes this year and most are barely alive even though the box was removed prior to planting.I have rolled the dice and purchased some roses from Wal-Mart with mixed results. The CR roses are very good and I have found some plants there with Weeks tags on them that are also pretty good. Every single one of the other roses have been incorrectly packaged, so I have no idea what they actually are. I have seen a lot of this type of mix-up in potted J&P roses from Lowes this year. I have at least two plants that are not what they say they are (wrong metal tags). So, to answer your question, I buy from four main sources : J&P, Witherspoon, Lowes and Home Depot. Many of the Home Depot roses are from smaller growers, but you need to be selective when buying. I would not suggest any bareroot roses from Lowes or Wal-Mart regardless of the grower. Potted roses from Lowes tend to be ok, and sometimes they get a shipment of plants from small growers. The CR roses from Wal-Mart in pots that are available in early spring are very good and seem to always be true to form. Plants from Witherspoon are always good, but are a little more expensive than everyone else. They sell primarily Weeks and J&P roses. I don't have any experience buying direct from a small grower, though I'm sure there are many good ones out there (some are listed in the ad sections of magazines such as American Rose). I hope this answers your question. Please let me know if you would like me to elaborate on anything. Thanks again for your kind comments!

Reply #2 of 5 posted 5 JUN 06 by HMF supporting member

HMF Admin

Thanks for taking the time to contribute to the site and in such detail.	REPLY

Reply #3 of 5 posted 6 JUN 06 by dhukill

I am pleased with what I recieved from J& P i'm glad to hear you have had good results. When choosing the roses I planted my focus was to go into two main areas: Fragarance and Cutting.

I took J & P's recomendations on which ones to pick. I planted them in early May, borderline late for bare root roses but they have all leafed out nicely and I have a couple that are setting on some buds. I have not fertilized too heavily yet. I put "mushroom stuff" in the hole and about 2 weeks later I scratched in some bayer 3-1 systemic granuals but that's about it. I have heard mixed results on feeding a newly planted rose. Some things I read say to wait and until the second year to fertilize. Any thoughts on this?

Reply #4 of 5 posted 6 JUN 06 by scottclifton

I have seen many different opinions about fertilizing and feeding. I use two types of plant food on my roses : Quick release and Slow release. You should not apply quick release fertilizer to your roses until the second year. It is best applied after the danger of frost has passed, since this fertilizer will quickly bring the plants out of dormancy. I then follow with slow release fertilizer in the mid-June - July time frame. I have always heard that it is best to fertilize new plantings after the first bloom with slow release fertilizer. When I plant my roses, I use 70/30 topsoil/composted cow manure along with 1/2 cup each of bone meal and blood meal to back-fill. This seems to be enough food for the plants until they start blooming in early May. Since I am relatively new at rose gardening, I am still experimenting with different fertilizers and plant foods to see which works the best with my soil and climate conditions.

Reply #5 of 5 posted 7 JUN 06 by dhukill

Thanks for your advise. I have been using Bayer for about 5 years. It says it's slow release but you really get a big growth spirt each time it's applied. All of the ones I planted 6 weeks ago have at least 2 buds forming, so I gave them another application tonight. I'm convinced the Mushroom Stuff ( if available in your area you should use this) had something to do with the strong start. It's basically a Mushroom Compost Tea that really helps in the root structure developement.

thanks again for your opinions.

GardenScott and Marlene's Rose Garden most recent 8 MAY 06 SHOW ALL

Initial post 20 APR 06 by wtowner

Reply #1 of 1 posted 8 MAY 06 by scottclifton

Thank You!!	REPLY