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'Paniculata' rose Reviews & Comments
Discussion id : 101-516
most recent 1 JUL SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 27 JUN by Andrew from Dolton
This rose is about twice the size of 'Excelsa' with far fewer roses per cluster, could it be 'Turner's Crimson'?
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Reply #1 of 5 posted 28 JUN by Patricia Routley
I am not sure what you mean when you say "this rose"? In my experience the size and colour of 'Turner's Crimson Rambler' and 'Excelsa' blooms are almost identical, (bearing in mind that both my roses are foundlings). But the habit of 'Turner's Crimson Rambler' is upright, and 'Excelsa' is sarmentose.
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Reply #2 of 5 posted 30 JUN by Andrew from Dolton
Oh sorry Patricia, I forgot to upload the picture!
The size of the blooms are about twice the size of 'Excelsa', not the plant. I think you are right it is 'Turner's Crimson'.
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Reply #3 of 5 posted 30 JUN by Patricia Routley
I don't think your rose is 'Turner's Crimson Rambler', but to check for yourself, please compare the pedicel and stipule with my photos. Not that mine are guaranteed, but they do have the prickly stipule that 'Turner's Crimson Rambler' passed on to the multiflora roses. You need to have side-on photos of the buds and pedicels. Full frontals give very little information.

The colour of your bloom is reminding me of "Manetti in Australia" actually.
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Reply #4 of 5 posted 30 JUN by Andrew from Dolton
Ah yes Patricia, thank you for making me look at it properly! Looking at the 'Turner's Crimson' pictures, your rose has very bristly pedicles whilst mine are smooth and green. The rose will be really vigorous, it was only planted this year as a stick in a 2lt pot but has since sent out masses of shoots and managed to produce a couple of flowers low down on the ground. The stipules are like a saw blade wth small regular cillates, not all whispy like a usual multiflora hybrid. There is a row prickles along the mid-rib on the back of the leaf. The flowers are the same colour as 'Excelsa', 'Manetti' is far too pale. Something I have noticed on HMF is that often other peoples' roses are a stronger colour than mine, presumably you receive more, brighter and hotter sun than I do.
The parent plant grew as a sort of half rambler and half shrub sending out long shoots sprawling all over the place. It grew in a semi-wild garden in a nearby town, where I rustled it from. I thought at first it might have been 'Cerise Bouquet'. The leaves are rounder and darker green than 'Turner's Crimson'. It has since been "tidied-up" and has not flowered this year.
Two weeks ago it was 32 degrees, now is down to 12 with the most cheerless heavy drizzle, I just lit the fire, such a depressing thing to be doing in the middle of summer.
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Reply #5 of 5 posted 1 JUL by Patricia Routley
There are a few files containing the name Manetti. It was the file "Manetti in Australia" that I wanted you to refer to. (This file was made after visiting California and noting their Manetti was different to the one we grow in Australia.)
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Discussion id : 97-945
most recent 10 MAR HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 10 MAR by Michael Garhart
My personal guess is that this rose has wichurana in it, but probably also 1/4 Hybrid perpetual from someone like Laffay, that made its way into Japan. Likely a rose that was used by Louis Lévêque fils a lot to make their red/purple OGRs. I think a modern rose (for the time) was from France, and not the UK, introduced the red/purple into the multiflora and wichurana species, which in the descendents mutated into pelargonidin. The potential was probably there to begin with.

Just my guesstimate based on the Japanese family name associated to this rose. I actually think it'd be easy to pin point which OGR was responsible for the red in this rose, but most descendents were not recorded in the early-1800s.I am guessing from a Gallica-China hybrid. Or even simply a Gallica.
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Reply #1 of 7 posted 10 MAR by Andrew from Dolton
I can't remember which book I read it in but I'm sure I read that someone theroized 'The Engineer' was a mix of wichurana, multiflora and chinensis.
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Reply #2 of 7 posted 10 MAR by Michael Garhart
It definitely has some phenotype traits of wichurana. Not a lot, but enough.

The problem with pure chinensis is that prickles above the stipules. This rather dominant trait follows this rose all the way to extremely distant descendents, such as 'Stormy Weather'. But it does not follow dominantly in polyanthas that are purely derived from multiflora/chinensis types. Rosa gallica is the most common example for this trait. My gut says that it is derived from both Gallica and Chinensis.
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Reply #3 of 7 posted 10 MAR by Andrew from Dolton
Well, it would be interesting indeed if it originated in the west and not in Japan. It would be fascinating to have it genetically tested.
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Reply #4 of 7 posted 10 MAR by Michael Garhart
I wish it could be tested! :D My guess is that it originated in Japan by the family name associated with the rose, in the Nagasaki region. Jesuits, Roman Catholics, and so on were found in Nagasaki and neighboring areas prior to WW2, and even wayyy before that.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Catholic_Church_in_Japan

What is interesting is that the Japanese family name is associated with NW African areas of French/Dutch/Catholic trade and immigration.

I think it was bred in Japan, and I think western roses found their way into Japan through religion and trade. However, I don't think the newest and brightest came through like lightning. Likely, religious family favorites and so on.

At least that is my best guess.
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Reply #5 of 7 posted 10 MAR by Andrew from Dolton
I'm trying to write a talk about the history of roses to give at our village hall to raise money for charity. All the time information changes! This is an important rose historically and an important parent to many many other roses, to find its exact origin would be really interesting. Almost every book has incorrect information about the way modern roses were created. Where do you think the colouring for a rose like 'Russelliana' came from? 'Tuscany'?
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Reply #6 of 7 posted 10 MAR by Michael Garhart
It's super important! Good work.

I think Russelliana could be a species/bourbon hybrid. I am not sure, but the bud/sepal/hip proportions are rather bizarre. A type of bud that is to roses that began in the gallica-china types and ended in the hybrid perpetuals.

I have also considered for the Engineer, that one side is species + chinensis, and the other is species + gallica. For example, some pink multiflora from Japan are thought to be hybrids (with chinensis, possibly) rather than color mutations.

Ah, yeah. Testing would be wonderful. It'd add the pieces of the puzzle to better guess the when, where, and what factors, to put together some sort of timeline and possible history with these roses.
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Reply #7 of 7 posted 10 MAR by Andrew from Dolton
Some people say 'Russelliana' has setigera blood in it, it certainly has a lot of gallica from my observations. 'Himmelsauge' and 'de la Grifferaie' are very similar they all have the same habit of producing random very pale flowers, half pale or even just a few pale petals. If you don't grow 'Russelliana' and you have the space, it makes a very beautiful and very scented rose.
I wonder if 'Tuscany' is some where in the back ground of 'Erinnerung an Brod' and has supplied the genes to make the "blue" roses?
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Discussion id : 62-430
most recent 4 MAR 12 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 4 MAR 12 by CybeRose
Aristocrats of the Garden pp. 8-9. (1917)
Ernest Wilson

In 1878, Prof. R. Smith sent from Japan to Mr. Jenner in England a Rose which the recipient named The Engineer in compliment to the profession of its donor. In course of time this Rose came into possession of a nurseryman named Gilbert who exhibited some cut flowers of it under the above name in 1890, and received an Award of Merit from the Royal Horticultural Society. Soon afterward Messrs. Chas. Turner, of Slough, purchased the stock and changed the name to Crimson Rambler. This Rose is generally assumed to be a hybrid between Rosa multiflora and some China Monthly Rose, but to me this view is untenable. I do not think it has any China Monthly blood in it at all. It has long been cultivated in China and I consider that, like the Seven Sisters Rose, it is a sport from the common, wild pink-flowered China Rambler (R. multiflora, var. cathayensis). These various Chinese Roses were introduced from Chinese gardens where they have been cultivated from time immemorial and their wild prototypes were not discovered, much less introduced, until comparatively recently.

The true Rambler Rose (R. multiflora) is a native of Japan and has single white flowers in large panicles. This was sent to Lyons, France, from Japan in 1862, by Monsieur Coignet, an engineer. The pink-flowered Chinese variety has only just been dignified by a distinctive name.
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Discussion id : 48-023
most recent 12 SEP 10 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 11 SEP 10 by Patricia Routley
A simplfied potted history of this rose is:
A navy mechanic of a steam boat, Mr. R. Smith, (also) Professor of Engineering at Tokio [sic] sent a plant from Japan to Mr. Jenner, a well-known horticulturist. Mr. Jenner named it the 'Engineer', and subsequently gave the rose to J. Gilbert, a nurseryman of Lincoln, who exhibited some cut blooms in July, 1890, and received an Award of Merit from the Royal Horticultural Society. Soon after this, Gilbert sold his stock to Mr. Turner, who renamed it 'Turner's Crimson Rambler' and put it into commerce in 1893.

The introducer is listed as Mr. Charles Turner in HelpMeFind. However as he died on May 9, 1885, and was succeeded by his son Arthur Turner, it seems likely that Arthur named the rose in memory of his father. Perhaps the introducer should be changed to Mr. Arthur Turner.
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Reply #1 of 6 posted 11 SEP 10 by Cass
Oh, those Turners. There were two Charles Turners. Charles Turner the younger was mentioned as exhibiting Crimson Rambler by a garden writer in the Journal of Horticulture and Cottage Gardener who went to see Crimson Rambler "at home" in 1895. (July 11, 1895, pp. 30-31)

The elder Charles Turner was associated with Royal Nursery/Nurseries, Salt Hill & Slough as early as 1851 and maybe as early as 1845. He lived from 1818-1885. "Mr. Charles Turner, the father of Mr. Arthur and Mr. Harry, established these nursery grounds over fifty years ago. (1902, Journal of Horticulture, p. 474) Harry Turner's obituary appears in 1906. Harry was the eldest son of Charles.

The second Charles Turner of Slough is mentioned starting in 1889. British Gardening said, in 1893, describing an exhibition at the Crystal Palace Summer Show: "Mr. Charles Turner, the Royal Nurseries, Slough, sent plants of "Turner's Crimson Rambler" Rose, a splendid free-flowering variety." (1893, p. 301) The same Charles Turner appears in 1891, 1898, again in 1906, 1907 and 1908, also at Royal Nurseries, in The Gardners' Chronicle and The Garden. Charles Turner was exhibiting Crimson Rambler throughout that period.

I don't think that Arthur's name should be associated with the introduction, given the references found so far. Maybe the Royal Nursery should be substituted? Is there reason to think that The Botanical Society of Edinburgh (copied in the Gardener's Chronicle ) got the story wrong in 1894? I still haven't found how this Charles Turner the younger is related to the first. Son of Arthur or Harry seems most likely.
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Reply #2 of 6 posted 12 SEP 10 by Patricia Routley
Yes. The Turners are difficult. Charles Turner Snr. Died on May 9, 1885
But just 11 days later at the Royal Botanic Society Summer Show on May 20, Mr. C. Turner staged carnations and azaleas (ref 1885, May 28. Journal of Horticulture and Cottage Gardener page 445]; and on June 25, Mr. C. Turner also showed pelagoniums and roses [same journal, but June 25, page 531]
In that same issue (page 532) Harry Turner was mentioned as being on the Royal Horticultural Society Floral Committee. As Harry died just 11 years later in 1906, I am presuming he was perhaps a little too old to take on the running of the nursery and that responsibility went to the younger Arthur who eventually died in 1930.

But who was the Charlie who showed the flowers just after Charles Turner died on May 9, 1885 I haven’t been able to find out. There is the thought that the nursery perhaps went under a sort of common name of Charles Turner, instead of Royal Nurseries. (You will note I am disobeying my rule again of “Thou shalt not presume.”)
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Reply #3 of 6 posted 12 SEP 10 by Cass
Patricia, I had the same thought about the use of "Charles Turner" as a generic for the nursery he founded. But The Garden (1904) p. 27 put that possibility to rest for me. It describes a visit to "Mr. Charles Turner's Nursery At Slough" and includes praise for Mr. Turner's exhibits at shows in May and July.
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Reply #4 of 6 posted 12 SEP 10 by Patricia Routley
We need some English sleuths on board. Maybe they will be able to turn up something.
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Reply #5 of 6 posted 12 SEP 10 by jedmar
A snippet from "The Gardener's Chronicle" of 1900 (p. 76?): "We regret to announce the death of Mr. Charles Turner, head-gardener for eight years to...." Unfortunately I cannot access the full text as Google is blocking more and more over here.
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Reply #6 of 6 posted 12 SEP 10 by Cass
I expect the blocking to get worse in reaction to the EU challenges to google for copyright violations.

"Charles TURNER.—We regret to announce the death of Mr. Charles Turner, head-gardener for eight years to Hatfeild Harter, Esq., the present proprietor of Cranfield Court, Bletchley, and his predecessor, the late Rev. G. G. Harter. He passed away on Monday, January 15, at Cranfield Court Gardens, at the age of sixty-six years. The deceased began his gardening career in the gardens of Blenheim Palace, where he became foreman ; he went then to Middleton Park, Cirencester, and afterwards to Gunnerabury Park, and the Crystal Palace Gardens."

A different Charles Turner, I think, not of Slough.
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