HELPMEFIND PLANTS COMMERCIAL NON-COMMERCIAL RESOURCES EVENTS PEOPLE RATINGS
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scvirginia 
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In 1982 the Tampa Rose Society told me that all the "Cracker Roses" all over central Florida were from cuttings originating from roses sold by the renowned Holmes Nursery on Mothers' Day of 1932. In the late 80's I added "Pink" to the name after Malcolm Manners and a founding member of his rose group said that "Cracker Rose" technically referred to the red China "Cramoisi Superieur/Louis Philippe" despite this pink China, which he felt he had never encountered, being traditionally called that by countless elder Floridians. He felt folks were simply mistaking 'Old Blush' for this rose but came to realize that his huge hedge of OB on the campus WAS in fact "Pink Cracker Rose" upon noticing the classic traits: VERY rare hip set, extreme vigor that can enable it to be a pillar rose, a tendency for large bloom clusters on the tips of spring basals, and a higher petal count. PCR exhibits amazing health and nematode resistance in Florida where so many roses languish and fail, plus roots easily from cuttings. It has proven VERY sterile in my breeding work. When Joyce Demits saw Malcolm's hedge of PCR on his campus she immediately felt it was ''Burbank' and showed me traits from both parents in both the foliage and the blooms. For years I'd been buying any and all pink Chinas to compare and had come to the same conclusion. Prior to that, my best guess had been the triploid form of 'Old Blush' about which there is very scant data. But that could help explain the sterility.
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Hi, John. Thank you for posting this information! Have you noticed any scent from the new growth tips or peduncles and sepals? That may help to determine its ancestry. You might also contact Sequoia Nursery about sending them some of this plant. Mr. Moore knew the Burbank rose and has sought it for years in hopes of incorporating it in breeding. He may be of help identifying it as Burbank or not.
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Thanks Kim....should I call/e-mail Carolyn? John
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Boy! That response was quick! LOL! Either way, your choice. A phone call will get a quicker response, but an email doesn't interrupt progress and is more cost effective. An email can also be shown to Mr. Moore more easily. I'd post a link to the great photos you posted to Help Me Find, too. He may be able to identify it from those, but a plant in the hand is worth many thousands of photos, as you know. Thank you! Kim
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This is an old discussion, but I'm wondering if Mr. Moore ever got a chance to look over this rose, and if he had any opinion about whether it might be 'Burbank'.
Thanks,
Virginia
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If he did, I never heard his response, unfortunately.
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Thanks, Kim... I was wondering if this rose could be 'Balduin', Peter Lambert's HT ('Charles Darwin' x 'Marie van Houtte'). According to early records, it was widely planted in the South (often as 'Helen Gould'), and is sometimes described as being deep pink with darker outer petals.
I don't grow a Pink Cracker Rose, so can't say if it could be an early HT.
Thanks again,
Virginia
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Well it could be a HT for all the information given on the main page!
Not even a basic colour is listed! sigh......
Oh - I see Mel Hulse opened this file back in 2006. He is quite forgiven.
What about if I add the following?
Class: China
Colour: pink, darker edges.
Double in summer, very double in autumn
Clusters on large basal shoots
Scent: sweet fruity
Rare hip set, sterile
Height: 5 feet?
Possibilities: 'Old Blush Climbing', 'Burbank', 'Balduin'
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You're welcome, Virginia. Thank you, Patricia, I think those would be great additions!
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Yes, something is better than nothing, and can be corrected if need be.
I noticed that a FL nursery was selling a "Cracker Rose Pink" that looked quite different from the photos at this record. I would not be astonished to hear that more than one pink rose in Florida (or the South) goes by the endearment "Cracker Rose", but I think we need to wait for someone who grows something by that name to volunteer some more details.
Thanks,
Virginia
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#10 of 15 posted
2 MAR 16 by
AquaEyes
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I know I'm adding to an old discussion, but.....
I have 'Napoleon' from Vintage Gardens growing in a south-facing bed against the side of a house. Many of the traits I see mentioned here also apply to 'Napoleon' -- vast increase in petal count in Autumn, I have yet to see a hip form, vigorous growth and THICK basals on my almost 3YO plant, "gobstopper-like" candy fragrance. John Starnes had commented on a pic of my plant which I posted to Facebook that he thought 'Napoleon' might be a possible identity, but he didn't mention what made him scratch that off the list.
:-)
~Christopher
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#11 of 15 posted
15 JUN 21 by
mmanners
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I hesitate to reopen this thread and to comment, in that John Starnes and Joyce Demits are no longer among us and can't reply. Yet I think, for the sake of historic accuracy, I should make some gentle corrections.
1. I certainly did not create the concept that 'Louis Philippe' is the Florida Cracker Rose; that has been quoted by many rosarians over many decades. While it is often mixed up with 'Louis Philippe', 'Cramoisi Superieur' is NOT also referred to as the Florida Cracker Rose.
2. I have no idea where the idea came from that the "cracker rose" was this pink rose, or who in the Tampa Rose Society may have begun that story. But in nearly 40 years of growing old roses in Central Florida (just 20 miles east of Tampa), I have never, ever heard anyone but John make that claim, or even suggest it. Nor am I aware of his Pink Cracker Rose having ever been found anywhere outside the greater Tampa area. Certainly, in Polk County, I've never seen one. I had quite a challenge getting a copy of it for study, in that no one seems to grow it. At last, a friend in California sent me a known-true start of it.
3. This part is rather messy, in that there were misconceptions, but not as John remembers them. We had a large hedge of a rose on our Florida Southern College campus that we thought was 'Old Blush'. When John and I looked at it, he pointed out that it was different from 'Old Blush', in that it never set hips. I don't recall him mentioning his cracker rose at that time (this would have been late 1980s). I agreed with him, but then did not have a name for it. Joyce Demits visited our gardens in 1991, and she recognized the hedge as 'Napoleon'. John has always remembered that event differently from me, but I have Joyce's note to me, identifying it as 'Napoleon'. Until then, I had never heard of 'Napoleon', but Joyce assured me that's what we had. Since then, many China rose experts have seen it, and everyone seems to agree it's 'Napoleon'.
4. Re. Scvirginia's comment -- yes, nurseries have sold the rose known as 'Pink Pet'/"Caldwell Pink" as "Pink Cracker." I'm not sure if other old pink roses may also have been sold under that name.
5. We grow 'Old Blush', 'Napoleon', "John Starnes' Pink Cracker," 'Burbank', and Sacramento's "Not Alice Hamilton." They all certainly have resemblance to each other, and we've run DNA tests on all but John's rose, and with the PCR tests we've used, they come out as identical (but then, so does Hermosa!), so their differences are so minor at the genetic level that the PCR test doesn't catch them (perhaps single-point sports of each other).
6. Of all of these, I'd say 'Napoleon' is the closest to being identical to JSPC. But at this point, I'm not willing to say they are identical. Our Pink Cracker is growing in our greenhouse, and I really need to put it out in the garden, next to 'Napoleon', for a good comparison.
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Obviously, I can't speak to what Mr. Starnes may have said or thought, but I have a longstanding impression that a 'cracker rose' is any of the crimson China roses found growing in the South. At this point, I can't remember how I came by this notion, but I don't think I just made it up out of nowhere.
The story about the rose being found all over Tampa because of one Mother's Day promotion during the Great Depression strikes me as unlikely. Looking at old catalogs for Florida rose growers, I see that 'Texas Wax' was often used as an understock by nurseries there... do you think that could be the Pink Cracker?
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Texas Wax was R. indica major
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Yes, or possibly a China/ Multiflora hybrid. Lots of diiferent forms of R. indica major.
As Dr. Manners pointed out, different forms may be genetically identical, but look quite different. I'd expect R. indica major to be very like—if not identical to—'Napoleon', say...
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Hi Malcolm, were you able to plant JSPC out in the garden near Napoleon to determine if they differ? It would be an interesting question to determine an answer for while it's possible. Thank you! Kim
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I think these 2 lovely photos are of the Rugosa Rose 'Atropurpurea', and not the China Rose 'Atropurpurea'.
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Does anyone know where this rose was found? I see that there is a Barfield, Alabama, but have no idea if Mr. Starnes found this rose there. OTOH, Barfield could be someone's surname?
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As I remember John stated that the person he got the rose from was named Barfield. Subsequently that's what he called it.
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Thanks!
As I'm sure you know, it can be helpful to know where foundlings were found (gives us an idea of what conditions they've persisted in, and also it may help to check old catalogs from nearby nurseries to see if there might be any clues about the original name). Too often that info gets lost...
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John was a character. We communicated off and on for years.
He did state how he came by the rose. Perhaps it was in one of the forums. I can't recall exactly where. As I recall he purchased it from a woman named Barfield.
Pam Greenewald of Angel Gardens might be of help since she's been in that area for many years. John communicated with a lot of rose growers and they might be of help but many of them have also passed.
See notes at Barfield Climber,
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Thanks- I did read the notes, and it does seem like this particular rose will thrive under varied conditions.
As for what roses were locally sold, it's hardly a fool-proof way to ID a rose, but sometimes it can suggest varieties that aren't obvious. Not everyone knows that a few Florida nurseries were big on Alister Clark's Australian Roses back in the 1930's, for example...
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#5 of 7 posted
26 SEP by
Lee H.
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Since I can’t post the link, here is what John wrote about it in his blog “Rosegasms”
“Years ago, Patty Barfield of 'Personal Touch Roses' bought several Mystery Roses from a travelling plants sales man though they were not in bloom...he said they were a white climber that grew well in Florida. She called to tell me as she knows I love trying to ID Mystery Roses, so I drove to Dover and bought one. I initially called it (with her permission) "Barfield White Rambler" as the first two years it was a once bloomer. But when it became a repeater I renamed it.”
I wonder what he renamed it?
You can find it all with johnstarnesloveofroses dot blogspot dot com
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Thanks! I didn't realize his blog was still online. A traveling plant salesman doesn't really help much with the location query!
I'm guessing the name change was from 'Rambler' to 'Climber'?
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I didn't realize his blog was still available either. Good for you!
Barfield in my climate could be classed as a rambler though it does have modest fall repeat here. In some more moderate climates it probably repeats modestly through much of the year.
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This is obviously not a single flowered rose. Given the NC provenance and description, I think this may be a photo of "Petite Pink Scotch", a found rose that may or may not be related to the Scotch roses (Rosa spinosissima), but definitely has Rosa wichuriana ancestry.
The flowers look right for "PPS", but I couldn't see the plant clearly enough to be confindent of the ID. Have a look at the other photos at HelpMeFind of "Petite Pink Scotch", and perhaps you will recognize your plant?
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