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Discussion id : 112-266
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Initial post today by Patricia Routley
I am unable to find anything on 'Rosenschnee'. Does anybody know if it could have been a synonym of 'Schneekusschen (KORnemuta)?
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Discussion id : 112-265
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Initial post yesterday by HubertG
From the Rosen-Zeitung 1887, page 26:

Die Entstehungsgeschichte der Polyantha-Rosen.

Durch Vermittlung des Herrn Wilhelm Kölle in Augsburg kommen wir in Besitz einiger Originalbeschreibungen, wie solche von der französischen Züchtern mitgeteilt wurden, welche nach der Uebersetzung wie folgt lauten:
...

2) Herr E. Dubreuil , Rosiériste à Monplaisir-Lyon schreibt:
"Die Perle d'or stammt von der einfach weiss blühenden Rosa Polyantha durch ein danebenstehendes starkes Exemplar der Madame Charles, natürlich befrüchtet, die, wie ich vermute, der Perle d'or ihr Kolorit verleihen hat."

My translation:

The History of the Development of the Polyantha Roses.

By arrangement with Mr Wilhelm Kölle of Augsburg, we have received in our possession some original descriptions, as were given by the French breeders, the translation of which reads as follows:

2) Mr. E. Dubreuil, rosarian of Monplaisir-Lyon writes:
"Perle d'or comes from the single white flowering Rosa Polyantha by way of a strong specimen of Madame Charles growing alongside it, naturally fertilised, which, I presume, has given Perle d'or its colouring."

--------

The other references here give Mme. Falcot as a parent. This seems authentic because it was from Dubreuil in 1887. The original text in Rosen-Zeitung does give Dubreuil's initial as 'E'. To me, it isn't entirely clear from the text whether the seed parent is Mme Charles or R polyantha. I've tried to translate Dubreuil's description as literally as I can. I found it rather interesting. The other roses mentioned in the article are 'Paquerette', 'Mignonnette', 'Gloire des Polyanthas' and 'Miniature'.
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Reply #1 of 1 posted today by Patricia Routley
Reference added thanks HubertG.
I haven't looked too closely at it, but Rambaux' daughter used 'Polyantha Alba plena' in her 'Mlle Cecile Brunner', so I would guess that she would have been guided by her dad. I'd plump for Polyantha Alba Plena' as the seed parent for 'Perle d'Or'.
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Discussion id : 112-264
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Initial post yesterday by Plazbo
Still flowering quite decently now in the middle of an Australian winter (so not that cold), have had two slight freezes (enough to see a slight ice covering over lawns and kill the foliage of intolerant plants like Mirabilis jalapa) but MC has been unphased. Is still with it's glossy dark leaves unlike almost every other rose in my garden. Biggest downside is aphids are very attracted to the plant (but that's a fairly common flaw).
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Discussion id : 111-886
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Initial post 2 JUL by Patricia Routley
Virginia, is it possible for you [or someone else] to add translations of the early 'Mme. Berard' references please?
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Reply #1 of 12 posted 2 JUL by HubertG
There's an interesting passage in the Rosen-Zeitung where someone writes in asking how to tell Gloire de Dijon and Mme. Berard apart, and the answer gives some interesting details. I'll post and translate that one later. It might be helpful. Very many of the other references in Rosen-Zeitung comment on how good a seed bearer Mme. Berard is, although this is perhaps no surprise given the number of its offspring.
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Reply #2 of 12 posted 2 JUL by billy teabag
"Rose in Commerce as Adam / almost certainly Mme Bérard" is a prodigious seed bearer. It is one of those roses that produces a hip for practically every flower, and if not dead-headed, the plant puts all its energy into making hips and seeds and becomes weak and disease prone.
David Ruston mentioned 'Great Western' as another example of a rose that needs to be rescued from its extreme fertility.
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Reply #3 of 12 posted 3 JUL by HubertG
From the Rosen-Zeitung 1898, pages83-84

"Frage-Kasten
... b) Welche deutlichen Erkennungszeichen hat man, um die beiden Rosen Gloire de Dijon und Madame Bérard zu unterschieden?

... Antwort auf Frage b. Die beiden genannten Rosen sind ebenso verschieden, wie etwa eine Souvenir de la Malmaison von einer Captain Christy verschieden ist. Vor allem verschieden sind die Blüten. Gloire de Dijon ist bedeutend heller; sie ist weiss und gelb, M. Bérard ist gelb und kupfrig. Gloire de Dijon öffnet sich leicht ganz und zeigt dann Wirrbau; Mad. Bérard öffnet sich nie ganz und zeigt nie Wirrbau; Aber auch andere Unterschiede sind auffallend. Gloire de Dijon ist reich, Mad. Bérard spärlich bestachelt. Gloire de Dijon blüht an langen, entspitzten Trieben an fast allen Augen; MB fast immer nur an den entständigen. Gl. de Dijon hat eine dicke, rundliche Knospe; M.B. eine mehr langliche. Gloire de Dijon gehört zu denjenigen Theerosen, deren reifes Holz - wie das des M. Niel - sehr hart und spröde ist; M. Bérard gehört zu denen, die sehr weiches Holz haben. Diese Unterschied ist, wenn mann beide Sorte nach einander okuliert, äusserst auffallend. Endlich hat M. Bérard durchaus dunkleres und reiches Laub als G. de Dijon. Aber schön sind beide."

My translation:

Question Box
b) What clear signs are there to recognise the difference between the roses Gloire de Dijon and Madame Berard?

... Answer to question b. Both the mentioned roses differ in much the same way in which a Souvenir de la Malmaison is different from a Captain Christy. Above all, the blooms are different. Gloire de Dijon is significantly lighter; it is white with yellow, M. Berard is yellow and coppery. Gloire de Dijon opens completely easily and then shows a confused construction; Mad. Berard never completely opens and never shows a confused construction; But other differences are also noticeable. Gloire de Dijon is richly and Mad. Berard is sparsely prickled. Gloire de Dijon flowers on long tip-pruned shoots from almost all eyes; M B almost always only on the teminals. Gl. de Dijon has a thick roundish bud; M.B. a more elongated one. Gloire de Dijon belongs to those Tea Roses whose mature wood - like that of M. Niel - is very hard and brittle; M. Berard belongs to those which have very soft wood. This difference is extremely noticeable when one buds both varieties one after the other. Finally, M Berard has thoroughly darker and richer foliage than Gloire de Dijon. Both, however, are beautiful.
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Reply #4 of 12 posted 4 JUL by HubertG
Translation of the above is now added.
I should comment that "Wirrbau" is rather hard to translate so that the original intended meaning is conveyed. It literally means confused or muddled construction or build. However it doesn't seem to be a word that is normally reserved specifically for roses because it doesn't appear anywhere else in all the Rosen-Zeitung publications. It seems to most be commonly used for when bees start building a hive in an irregular way. In any case, I've left it as "confused construction" because that can cover a good deal.
I wonder if the writer means a twisted rosette eye once the flowers expand. Anyway, it is an interesting and hopefully helpful reference.
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Reply #5 of 12 posted 4 JUL by billy teabag
Many thanks for this HubertG. There's a lot of very useful detail in that reference.
I ran the original through Google translate late last night and though it did a reasonably good job, it didn't even attempt "Wirrbau".
If we can safely conclude that the roses grow similarly enough in temperate Australia and wherever these observations were made (are there any hints about the location?), then reading the descriptions of growth habit and where the blooms tend to appear, "Not Adam" is more like 'Gloire de Dijon' and 'Mme Berard' sounds closer in growth habit to roses like 'Reve d'Or'.
I'm less certain that "Not Adam" is 'Mme Berard' after reading this.
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Reply #6 of 12 posted 4 JUL by HubertG
Billy, you're welcome. I'll check later for clues on the writer's location. There are lots of Mme Berard references on Rosen-Zeitung. That one was probably the most interesting, but I can post more. I haven't grown either rose so can't comment but the photos I've seen over the years of Gloire de Dijon do give the impression of it having a muddled or 'wirr' form.
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Reply #7 of 12 posted 4 JUL by Patricia Routley
Reference added.
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Reply #8 of 12 posted 4 JUL by HubertG
The writer was "O.S. in L.". This must be Otto Schultze who was a contributor to the Rosen-Zeitung, but so far I haven't been able to determine the location "L."

This might be useful. From the Rosen-Zeitung 1894 page 7:
"Mad. Moreau ist in allen Eigenschaften mit Mad. Bérard identisch, das Lachsgelb der Blüte ist jedoch viel kräftiger als bei Mad. Bérard. Mad. Moreau erscheint farbenglänzender als letztere."

Mad. Moreau is in all characteristics identical to Mad. Berard, the salmon-yellow of the flower is however much stronger than Mad. Berard. Mad. Moreau comes more brightly coloured than the latter."

And from page 19 of 1894:

"Mme Bérard, besonders reich im Herbst blühend."

Mme Berard, especially abundantly blooming in autumn.
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Reply #9 of 12 posted 5 JUL by Patricia Routley
Thanks again HubertG. Reference added
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Reply #10 of 12 posted 2 days ago by HubertG
Has anyone considered Mme Chauvry (from Bonnaire) as a possible identity for the Australian presumed Mme Berard? It was Mme Berard x W A Richardson.
Superficially it fits the bill and was a profuse hip bearer, but I haven't looked into it enough to find any minutiae which might rule it out. Just throwing it out there.
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Reply #11 of 12 posted 2 days ago by Margaret Furness
It would be helpful if anyone who grows Mme Chauvry, or has seen it growing, would post photos with ID-type details, and state the provenance of their rose please.
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Reply #12 of 12 posted today by HubertG
'Mme Moreau' (1889 Moreau-Robert) might be another one to consider for the Australian Mme Berard.
It was Mme Falcot x Mme Berard and was thornless or nearly so.
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