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MemberCybeRose
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Initial post 7 days ago by Roseraie "Roses de Normandie"
Bonjour,
I am doing some research concerning the English nurseryman Alfred Crace Calvert and his nursery in Rouen (Normandy). None of his roses remain, so I was very happy to discover, on HMF, the lithography you published of his rose 'Duc de Wellington'. It is presented as being a chinensis of 1817. But on the litho I think I read 1831, so would it be the Centifolia of the same Crace Calvert and having the same name 'Duc de Wellington? The coarse foliage, the many spines are in agreement. I can not find the Sweet's Florit's Guide from 1831. It would be exciting to know what this review of this rose says. How could we access it?
I will appreciate your help a lot.
Regards,
Daniel
NB: thank you also for the portraits that I did not know of Crépin and of Loddiges, characters!
n,
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Reply #1 of 13 posted 4 days ago by CybeRose
Daniel,
"1831" is the date of the printing, not of the rose. However, I think you are correct that the Centifolia of Calvert is the same as the Hybrid China of Calvert.

In the early 19th century, the Damask roses were often classified as Centifolias. This had me confused when I first learned of it.

For example, the catalogues of plants grown in Mauritius (1816 and 1822) disguised the Autumn Damask roses as Centifolia. But the catalogues from l'ile Bourbon (1820, 1825) call them Rosa semperflorens, the authority for that name is Hort. Mus. Parisiens.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/Mauritius1816.html

Karl

PS
Richardson: Roses in India (1855)
The Madras rose, or Rose Edward, a variety of R. centifolia, Gul ssudburuk, is the most common, and has multiplied so fast within a few years, that no garden is without it; it blossoms all the year round, producing large bunches of buds at the extremities of its shoots of the year; but, if handsome, well-shaped flowers are desired, these must be thinned out on their first appearance, to one or two, or at the most three on each stalk. It is a pretty flower, but has little fragrance. This and the other double sorts require a rich loam rather inclining to clay, and they must be kept moist.
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Reply #2 of 13 posted 3 days ago by jedmar
Hort. Mus. Paris. would be Hortus Museum Parisiennes - i.e. the Garden of the Natural History Museum in Paris
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Reply #3 of 13 posted 3 days ago by Roseraie "Roses de Normandie"
Karl,
Karl,
I continued my research on Calvert's Wellington roses. I come to the following conclusion: he got two roses:
Duke of Wellington, a chinensis in 1817
and
Wellington or Duke of Wellington, or Rosa Wellingtoni a Centifolia in 1831 or 1832, the rose shown on the lithograph that you found and published on HMF. Do you have a text accompanying this picture from The Florist's Sweet Guide of 1831 (plate 189)?
Karl, this is just the beginning of a response to your well-researched message.
Thank you.
Regards
Daniel
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Reply #4 of 13 posted 3 days ago by CybeRose
Daniel,
I have added the text to the picture of 'Duc de Wellington' (China). I copied it from the 1829-1832 edition.

I think that Calvert's China-Damask (Bourbon?) rose has sometimes been confused with 'Wellington', a Gallica. I don't know how 'Africaine', a once-blooming hybrid China, got into the mix.

I have not been able to learn much about Calvert's introductions, aside from the rose that Vibert used as the foundation for his Trianon roses.
Karl
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Reply #5 of 13 posted 2 days ago by Roseraie "Roses de Normandie"
Karl,
'Duc de Wellington blooming for several months, it comes from the cross of a China x Damask Perpetual, which makes it, as you say, a Bourbon!
This poses a problem to me because Prévost describes it in its catalog of 1829 as a Hybrid China. He therefore cultivates a non-reblooming rose that he presents: "L'Africaine, V. - La Boulotte - Spaendonck, C. - Duke of Wellington, CC."
V: name given by Vibert in his nursery in Saint-Denis
C: name given by Cels in his nursery in Paris
CC: name given by Calvert in his nursery in Rouen
Prévost cultivating all these roses with different names, he compared them, and considers that these names of Hybrid Chinas are synonyms.
Prévost, professor of botany and nurseryman in Rouen, was contemporary of the Englishman Crace Calvert also in Rouen.
I wish to add that I was born in Rouen ...
Daniel
Daniel
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Reply #6 of 13 posted 2 days ago by Roseraie "Roses de Normandie"
Karl,
I do not have much confidence about Farquhar's knowledge of roses (catalogs of Mauricius). Yes, Karl, The rose 'Semperflorens' of Bréon (catalogs of Réunion) is the Damask Perpetual 'Quatre Saisons' = 'Bifera' = 'The Monthly Rose' = 'Omnium calendarum' = 'Autumn Damask', etc. etc. and also Rosa damascena semperflorens = 'Sempeflorens'. It is unfortunate that this last name has been used to name a China introduced in England.
There are several catalogs of plants from the Jardin des Plantes de Paris called Hortus Regius Parisiensis or Horti Regii Parisiensis.
Rosa omnium calendarum was cultivated in the 1750s on the Ile de France (Mauricius), made into hedges and used to make rose water. A rose from China that blooms all year round but without perfume was also known on the island in 1763.
Daniel
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Reply #7 of 13 posted 2 days ago by CybeRose
Daniel,
Governor Farquhar did not compile the catalog. He may have requested it, of helped finance it, but that would be the end of his involvement.

English botanist did not often agree with each other, let alone with someone in France. The gardeners at Chelsea ignored Kew, and the Kew gardeners ignored Chelsea. The various nurserymen had their own names for plants. Sometimes a name would be used by different authors for two very different plants. And a single species could carry multiple names. And that was just around London.
Karl
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Reply #8 of 13 posted yesterday by jedmar
And this continues to date :) I do not trust Bréon, for example. But I am not the first: Neumann, Richard/Decaisne had other stories in the 19th century
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Reply #9 of 13 posted yesterday by CybeRose
Daniel,
Before I let go of this aspect of the matter:
Ainslie: Materia Indica (1826) p 346
The rosa centifolia, which is, according to Dierbach, the Rodon of Hippocrates, and is the <?? , ??) of the Persians, is that chiefly employed in making both rose water and uttir. Those of the province of Kerman are of peculiar freshness.

Karl Koch (1879)
According to the recent researches of Mr. Baker of Kew the Rose of Adrianople is not in reality a Centifolia, but a Damask Rose, which alone supplies the true essence of Roses of Oriental India, Cashmere, and Morocco.

Rev. Pemberton (1918)
2. The Damask. R. centifolia, the Rose of Damascus, brought to France in the time of the crusaders, gives us the damask perfume. This fragrance is heavy, strong and positive, but not, in the writer's experience, diffusive. That is to say, this perfume does not seem to impregnate the air as does the musk; you have to take the Rose and smell it. But being so strong and positive in the individual flower, it has come to be regarded by many as the real Rose scent, and a Rose which has it not, although it may have another perfume, is apt to be deemed scentless or deficient in scent. It is from this perfume that attar of rose is manufactured—prior to the war this was a great Bulgarian industry. 

Old errors are hard to kill, and this one survived (at least in England) into the 20th century.

Another matter to consider is timing. Napoleon was finally locked away in 1815, which ended the blockade between the UK and the rest of Europe. Some gardeners and agriculturists ran to the docks to get passage on ships crossing the English Channel. Others waited a year or two or three to make their voyages.

I should mention that 1816 was the Year without Summer. This year was known in parts of the U.S. as "Eighteen-hundred and froze to death." It was cold, and many plants were destroyed. Nurserymen were very busy propagating, as well as introducing new plants from across the Channel.

And in the frenzy of importations and propagations, errors were made. The 'Bengal Bichonne' of Gauche (France) was mistakenly attributed to Joseph Knight of London. And some of Knight's several Crimson China seedlings have been credited to unknown French breeders. I also suspect that Knight's Yellow (tea-scented) China rose was really Dr. Cartier's 'Bengal Jaune'. Both were said to be self-seedlings of the Blush Tea-scented>

Finally, if the 'Duc de Wellington' illustrated in 1831 is supposed to be the same one offered for sale in 1817 ... well, there was time enough for some confusion to arise. In fact, it is also possible that the plant itself changed.

For example, 'Commandant Beaurepaire' was introduced as a vigorous, once-blooming "doubtful hybird". In time it became remontant and was reintroduced as 'Panachée d'Angers'. The newer name didn't stick, so we have the modified form under the old name.
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Reply #10 of 13 posted yesterday by Roseraie "Roses de Normandie"
Yes, but the fact is that in the 1750's both 'Quatre saisons' (a Damask Perpetual, see reply 5) and a China were widespread in Ile de France and in Bourbon Island. In this time, Fusée Aublet, a botanist to the king, cultivated "hedge banks" made of 'Quatre saisons' and of Rosa diversifolia (a China also called 'Sanguinea'). It is therefore not unlikely that these 2 roses gave birth to the Rosa borbonica 'Rose Edouard', according to Bréon. However, the mystery to me is that in the 1820s, in Rouen, Prévost was growing two different Bourbon roses 'Rose Edward 'and 'Rose Edouard'! He wrote that 'Rose Edward' was the first Bourbon to be imported in France (from Ile de France). Then, as we know, 'Rose Edouard' was imported from Bourbon Island by Neumann. What do we know about this 'Rose Edward' ?
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Reply #11 of 13 posted yesterday by jedmar
Daniel, Fusée-Aublet states in an Annex to "Histoire des Plantes da la Guiane Françoise" that when he arrived in Ile de France (Mauritius) (1752) he found only one rose bush from which he took cuttings and planted. Within 1,5 to 2 years he had palisades and hedges of this rose which bloomed twice and from which he distilled "rose butter". He also says that this original bush was brought to the Island from Brasil by Kerguelin. If he is talking about Yves Joseph de Kerguelen, then this naval explorer arrived for the first time on August 20, 1771 in Mauritius. I think Fusée-Aublet confused something. It cannot be Kerguelin and I don't think Brasil can be the origin of the rose he saw.
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Reply #12 of 13 posted yesterday by CybeRose
Jedmar,
Ah, botany at the dawn of global travel. It was a mess. European botanists were sometimes baffled when very similar plants (e.g., Polianthes tuberosa) arrived from both the Far East and the West Indies. They hadn't quite grasped that Spanish and some Portuguese sailors carried many American plants to the Philippines, and from there the "jade hairpins" made their way to China.

And during one of my earlier studies, I learned that sailors could not travel southward along the west coast of Africa because both the currents and the prevailing winds moved northwards. So, they could leave Europe traveling mostly westwards, then go southwest to Brazil. From there they would slant southeast across the open sea to the Cape of Good Hope. And then they would pass isle Bourbon before reaching Mauritius. In which case, someone arriving from Brazil might bring along something collected along the way. Of course, that would not explain the date discrepancy.

We Americans still speak of "English Walnuts" only because, long ago, these Persian Walnuts arrived on English ships.

Oh, and this confusion is not all that new. One still wonders when the South American sweet potato first reached New Zealand.
Karl
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Reply #13 of 13 posted today by jedmar
Karl, I agree that it is partly a mess. That's why I try to find corroborating information and data on what is stated in 18th/19th century texts. There were connections between South America and South Africa, but what Fusée-Aublet says does not quite fit the picture. I am looking at Mahé de La Bourdonnais who became governor of Ile de France and Ile Bourbon in 1734 and Pierre Poivre who arrived 1753 in Ile de France. Both were previously in India. Interestingly Fusée-Aublet lost his position in Ile de France in 1762 following escalating conflicts with Pierre Poivre, who had become the Administrator Intendant of the island. I have a hunch that he mentioned Kerguelen as the source of the rose bush just not to mention Poivre (13 years later)!
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Initial post today by jedmar
In which garden was this label?
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Initial post today by bumblekim
Moschata = Moscata. There is a separate listing for a "Rosa Moscata major" syn. Rosa major Grandiflora, This should be merged with Rosa Moschata et al. , even the reference photo for one of the "Rosa Moscata" contains the "h"--> "moschata"
Because it is normally pronounced phonetically "moscata" people leave out the "h" sometimes (as the sign I took at the Mills garden a few years ago).
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Reply #1 of 1 posted today by jedmar
These are two distinct roses with the same name. Rosa moscata major was a historic form of Rosa moschata with large, single nlooms; but seems to have gone extinct. 'Moschata Grandiflora' is a cultivar of Bernaix from 1886. We'll add some detail to make the difference more apparent. Three photos on the listing of Rosa moscata major have to be moved to Rosa moschata.
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Initial post today by Unregistered Guest
Rose Listing Omission

Rita Dennis

2016
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