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Initial post 2 days ago by lbuzzell
We've been asked by an environmental horticulture student at a nearby college about best roses for commercial uses - making rose water, perfume, rose water, rose vinegar and other rose products. Any suggestions?
Reply #1 of 8 posted yesterday by jedmar
Traditionally it is Rosa centifolia or Rosa damascena for rose water and perfume; Rosa gallica for rose vinegar. The variety 'Kazanlik' is planted extensively in Bulgaria and Turkey for rose water and rose oil. In India they also use 'Rose Edouard'. I know someone who uses 'Graham Thomas' to prepare yellow-coloured rose water and jams.
Reply #2 of 8 posted yesterday by Andrew from Dolton
The hips from Rosa canina were used, and still are, commercially to produce rosehip syrup. As a newborn I was given this and a blackcurrant syrup called Ribena recommended then as health foods to be given in bottles at bedtime. It wrecked my milk teeth.
Reply #3 of 8 posted yesterday by Andrew from Dolton
Marguerite Patten, 500 RECIPES FOR JAMS, PICKLES, CHUTNEYS. Pub. PAUL HAMLYM LIMITED, Westbook House, Fulham Broadway, London.

p. 39
Rose Hip Jelly

Cooking time 50 minutes

You Need:
1 lb. rose hips
2 lb apples
lemon juice

1. Simmer the rose hips with 1/4 pint water and apples with 1/2 water, separately.
2. Put both lots of fruits through separate jelly bags.
3. Mix together.
4. Allow 1 lb. sugar and the juice of 1 lemon to each pint.
5. Stir over low heat until sugar has dissolved.
6. Boil rapidly until jell is set.

Rose hip syrup

cooking time 5 minutes, plus sterilizing time.
you will need:
1 lb. rosehips
8 - 12 oz. sugar
3 pints water each pint of juice

To preserve the maximum amount of vitamin C, this is the method to use:-
1. Grate or chop the hips quickly and use immediately after grating.
2. Put into the water once boiling.
3. Simmer for 5 minutes only.
4. Stand for 15 minutes.
5. Strain and measure.
6. Add the sugar and proceed from step 3 in fruit syrups (see page 81)....

[And it goes off all about boiling it up and making syrup, if anyone wishes to know then ask me in a private message. I'm sorry about the imperial measurements].
Reply #5 of 8 posted yesterday by lbuzzell
Many thanks Andrew for the ideas and recipe! I love the idea of Rose Hip Jelly or Jam. Alas, we can't grow R. canina here in our Mediterranean zone - any suggested alternative roses that have great hips and could grow here?
Reply #6 of 8 posted yesterday by Andrew from Dolton
There is also a delicious North African spice mixture, Ras el hanout, that contains tiny rose buds but I don't know what rose they are.
Reply #4 of 8 posted yesterday by lbuzzell
Thanks Jedmar. We are in a Mediterranean climate zone so need roses that can grow well here, which unfortunately excludes centifolias, gallicas etc. The Austin roses that have old rose genes (like 'Graham Thomas' and perhaps 'Gertrude Jekyll' and 'Golden Celebration'?) sound like possible alternatives - any other suggestions of Austin or other roses that might grow well here but also offer old rose taste and scent?
Reply #7 of 8 posted yesterday by Margaret Furness
I'm surprised you can't grow R canina - or is that a quarantine restriction? I'm in a mediterranean climate (cool wettish winters, hot dry summers) and both R canina and the sweetbriar are declared weeds, bird-spread, in southern Australia. Sweetbriar is feral in New Zealand too (and was an important source of vitamin C during the war years, I'm told).
I haven't tried rugosas for taste of hips.
Reply #8 of 8 posted today by Patricia Routley
'Miss Clipper', 1942 was recommended for perfumed oil. See the 1949 reference for that rose.
'Gertrude Jekyll', 1986.See the 1993-106 reference.
I have noted 'Mme. Isaac Pereire' and 'Comte de Chambord' mentioned in the articles below and these articles may provide background information.

2010 The Rose, p347. Jennifer Potter
2000. Heritage Roses in Australia journal, Vol 22, No. 3, p37. Drying petals for confetti.
2000. Heritage Roses in Australia journal, Vol 22, No. 2, p38. Recipes for Elizabethan Bath Balls, and Rose Hip Chutney.
1998. Heritage Roses in Australia journal, Vol 20, No. 3, p44. Drying Rose Petals (using the microwave)
1978 The Rose Annual, UK, p33. G. S. Thomas. The Fragrance of Roses.
1975 The Rose Annual, UK, p22. G., S. Thomas. Perfume.
1974 Roses, p214. Gerd Krussman. The Rose in the Kitchen.
1964 The Rose Annual, UK, p42. A. M. Aldous. Pot-Pourri and Other Recipes.
1928 The Rose Annual, UK, p91. Mrs. Simonds. Pot-Pourri.
1918 The Rose Annual, UK, p95. Gertrude Jekyll. The Making of Pot-Pourri.
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Initial post yesterday by Patricia Routley
What were this breeder's christian names? We have three mentioned: Walter, L. Wilhelm, and Wilhelm August.
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Initial post 9 MAY 15 by Jay-Jay
Why oh why is this Rose called Pissarti and not Pissardii after the discoverer Pissard, like I believe it should have? Like the Purple Leaf Plum Prunus cerasifera 'Pissardii'.
In some of the References on HMF it is called Rosa Pissardii!
Reply #1 of 4 posted 2 days ago by CybeRose
The first publication of the plant and its name included a note from Pissart. Even if it was a misprint, there is nothing to be done because the name of the rose was published at that time as Rosa pissarti.

Revue Horticole, pp. 314-316 (1880)

Voici ce qu’il nous écrivait sur cette plante le 15 août 1879:
Cher monsieur Carrière, 
La magnifique espèce dont je vous ai envoyé des échantillons en fleurs et en fruits est originaire du Guiland, localité voisine de la mer Caspienne, et dont elle a été importée il y a déjà longtemps, pour orner les jardins de Téhéran, ce à quoi, du reste, elle est très-propre. Elle y pousse et fleurit très-bien, quoique la chaleur soit extrême pendant six mois, et qu’elle soit plantée dans un sol sec et pierreux, pas ou peu arrosé, et que l’hiver le thermomètre s’abaisse jusqu’à 15 degrés au-dessous de zéro. La plante devient admirable par son port élevé et ses inconvenir; elle demande à être isolée et plantée au midi. Placée sur une pelouse, cette espèce produirait un effet splendide.
Quoique la plante donne facilement et même abondamment des fruits, je n’ai jamais trouvé de bonnes graines. Je suis même disposé à croire qu’il en est ainsi partout ici, car je n’ai jamais vu de sujet provenant de semis, et les indigènes la multiplient par marcottes. 
Veuillez, etc. Pissart.
Reply #2 of 4 posted 2 days ago by Jay-Jay
I found this from the University of Wageningen ( ) : Page 61-63
De Botanische Nomenclatuur behoort niet kakistocratisch, zelfs niet democratisch (dat beteekent in dit geval: gedeeltelijk kakis-tocratisch) doch aristocratisch te zijn. Verstand en goede smaak
behooren te overwegen. Scientia amabilis! Nomen est omen, De namen weerspiegelen de botanici.
Nr. 196.
Prunus Pissardii of Pissartii
Celastrus orbiculata en articulata.
Orthographische kwesties, REHDER in Amerika, VOSS in Duitschland, schrijven, tegen de
gewoonte, Prunus Pissartii.
De soort werd door CARRIÈRE in Revue Horticole van 1881 bekend gemaakt met den naam
P. Pissardi; CARRIÈRE deelt er tevens in een noot mede, dat in den vorigen jaargang een nieuwe rozensoort bij vergissing Rosa Pissarti genoemd werd, doordat hij in de meening verkeerde, dat de naam der betreffende persoon PISSART was, terwijl het PISSARD bleek te zijn; dus moest de naam Rosa Pissardi worden.
Derhalve had REHDER, die principieel en volgens art. 57 der Internationale Regels de namen zoo houdt als ze oorspronkelijk gepubliceerd zijn, Prunus Pissardi en Rosa Pissarti moeten schrijven in zijn „Manual", doch hij schrijft Prunus cerasifera var. Pissartii BAILEY 1)
en Rosa moschata (syn. R Pissardii CARR.).
Derhalve volgt hij zijn eigen principe hier niet, noch geeft hij een goede correctie.
Wanneer men daarentegen de namen schrijft zooals zij behooren geschreven te worden in overeenstemming met de namen, waarvan zij zijn afgeleid, met de regels van het latijn en het
grieksch en met de internationale Regels en Aanbevelingen der Nomenclatuur (eenigszins geëmendeerd), dan hebben we vasten bodem onder de voeten en wordt éénheid op dit gebied
Dan moeten wij schrijven (So we have to write:)
Prunus Pissardii
Rosa Pissardii.
Reply #3 of 4 posted yesterday by CybeRose
Formal nomenclature is sometimes frustrating because of the "first published" rule. However, having waded through the many arbitrary name changes before the modern rules were established, I'm willing to accept the loss of Brontosaurus in favor of Apatosaurus. Oops! I just checked for the spelling of these names and learned that Brontosaurus is back.

Well, then ... I was annoyed when Franklinia alatamana was renamed Gordonia. But Franklinia came back, too.

Orthography differences are difficult enough when languages share an alphabet. Eschscholtzia californica is an imposing name for the little golden poppy, and is absurd because the "schsch" represents a single Cyrillic character. But it was published that way.

Even worse examples can be mentioned, such as Belamcanda chinensis being renamed Iris domestica. This happened because the first publication had an image of a Belamcanda blossom next to an orchid stem.

Sometimes I learned that a name had been changed just as I finally became confident in pronouncing the old one.

Reply #4 of 4 posted yesterday by Jay-Jay
Hi Karl,
For the record: I was just adding some info and not doubting Your input.
Thanks heaven, that the Emily Brontosaurus has it's name back again. I like it spines that look like those of Polka... or is it the other way round?
Chips, I'm mistaken too, they look like the spines on the Stegosaurus
most recent yesterday HIDE POSTS
Initial post 2 days ago by HubertG
This looks so different from the photos of my Dr Grill that I've just posted. Is this always so evenly pink?
Reply #1 of 8 posted 2 days ago by Vesfl
It does indeed look different from the photo of your 'Dr. Grill'. The shrub was in full sun when I was taking this photo and I took this closeup of the blooms on the shady side of the shrub. The blooms are not always solid pink but have shades of light to darker pink and I hope that this can be seen, albeit from a distance, on another photo of the entire shrub I posted.

After reading your comment, I've looked up "Tea Roses: Old Roses for Warm Gardens", a book written by the Australian authors, and they say that the original 'Dr. Grill' is not in commerce in Australia. On their profile of the 'William R. Smith' rose, which looks closer to yours judging from their photos, they write that it has been sold in Australia as 'Dr. Grill' and sometimes as 'Amelia Anderson'. I am not a rosarian, but hope this info helps. Either way, your rose looks absolutely stunning.
Reply #2 of 8 posted 2 days ago by HubertG
Thank you Vesfl. Yes, there does seem to be some confusion over Dr Grill here (and elsewhere). I'm pretty certain my bush isn't W R Smith or Amelia Anderson, as mine sets hips and doesn't ball.
Reply #3 of 8 posted 2 days ago by Margaret Furness
And see the description page of Dr Grill: the rose grown under that name in the US is not the original Dr Grill.
Reply #4 of 8 posted yesterday by Patricia Routley
HubertG - would you like us to make a "study file" for your rose in question? Since you are not positive about the provenance, I suggest a study name something like "HubertG's possible Dr. Grill", but you might come up with something more appropriate. You could then move your photos out of the 'Dr. Grill' file and this may help to lessen the confusion over 'Dr. Grill'.
We could link your account with this "rose file" and you could add as much information as you like on this rose over the years. Unfortunately we are unable to move the Comments relating to your foundling, so they would have to stop where they are.
Reply #5 of 8 posted yesterday by HubertG
Patricia, no, I actually think that my rose is most likely to be the real Dr. Grill. It wasn't a foundling. I did purchase it as Dr Grill from Honeysuckle Cottage Nursery, it's just that we don't seem to know where they sourced their stock. It isn't the Dr Grill that appears to be William R Smith or Amelia Anderson, judging by appearances and fertility, balling etc.
Regarding why I think it is likely to be the original (no evidence of course, just considered speculation) boils to down to a number of factors. Firstly, it matches the descriptions of being variably coppery yellow to fawn pink, which mine is. I do believe it has similarities most with the Moon illustration particularly in the colouring and the commentary say that the colours are faithfully represented, but also in the formation of the flowers. The growth habit matches the early descriptions being angular/awkward. It always opens well, at least I never remember seeing it ball. Secondly, when I look at the parents of Dr Grill, particularly Souvenir de Victor Hugo, I can see strong similarities with my rose, particularly with the incurving central petals, the high centred form and the coppery colour. When I look at the picture of Parsefal which has Dr Grill as a parent, I can easily see my rose in it. I do believe that the early breeders must have seen something special in Dr Grill to use it in crossing with the early Hybrid Teas. When I look at some of the other European Dr Grill's here, although the colours seem correct on some, some of them are somewhat insubstantial in form and I wonder if a breeder back then would have used such a rose to create roses like Antoine Rivoire, Mme Abel Chatenay etc. Thirdly is the scent which isn't strong but is distinctly hay scented. Not too many roses claim to have such a scent. I know you can't smell it, you'll just have to take my word.
Lastly, Dr Grill was available at least in Sydney to at least WWII and possibly later, it certainly isn't inconceivable that bushes survived and cuttings were passed around. I speculated in another post that Honeysuckle Cottage Nursery might have sourced it from a local nursery that had some rare old HT's. I mentioned Columbia. I now remember Korovo was another of the old HT's being sold there that I don't think was in the catalogues of the time. This is purely speculation on my part but maybe they sourced my Dr Grill from there and it came from a old known local plant.

Anyway, as I said previously I don't know that my rose is the correct Dr Grill, but that could probably be said about any of the photos of Dr Grill here, so it would be a pity to give it a separate listing, especially as the case for it being correct is reasonably strong in my opinion.

I can certainly stop spamming the Dr Grill section with my photos if you like, but because it is so variable and beautiful, there always seems to be another shot to post.
Reply #6 of 8 posted yesterday by HubertG
Patricia, on second thought it might be better to move it to a new listing. Whatever it is, as long as anyone looking up Dr Grill's page can find a link to it that's OK with me. That way I can photo-spam all I like lol.
Reply #7 of 8 posted yesterday by Patricia Routley
I would like to point out that HelpMeFind's capacity is not limitless.
Reply #8 of 8 posted yesterday by HubertG
LOL I was only joking.
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