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Discussion id : 109-344
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Initial post 2 days ago by Lavenderlace
I've salvaged this one by using it as a climber where a lot of blooms aren't required, though I wish that they would appear. Very clean foliage and really fast growing.
Discussion id : 109-340
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Initial post 2 days ago by Unregistered Guest
Available from - high country gardens
Discussion id : 109-283
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Initial post 4 days ago by Byrnes, Robert L.
This rose is rated hardy to zone 2b in the following paper:

Roses for the North
Performance of Shrub and Old Garden Roses at the Minnesota Landscape Arboretum
Kathy Zuzek, Marcia Richards, Steve McNamara and Harold Pellett

Minnesota Agricultural Experiment Station University of Minnesota Minnesota Report 237-1995

Could there be a change made to the current hardiness rating? Thank you.

Rob Byrnes
Reply #1 of 5 posted 3 days ago by Margit Schowalter
Hi Rob,
Further to your reference regarding zone 2, we know Georges Bugnet was using R. amblyotis in zone 2 Alberta (1930's), Canada when he developed his famous rose 'Thérèse Bugnet'.
Reply #2 of 5 posted 3 days ago by Byrnes, Robert L.
Hello Margit,

Thank you for your reply. I learned about R. amblyotis while looking at 'Therese Bugnet' lineage. R. amblyotis was listed as being hardy to zone 6 and thought that couldn't be acurate. So I did a little searching and found the reference I posted.
Reply #3 of 5 posted 3 days ago by Patricia Routley
I have changed the hardiness rating to 2b.
Rob, if you have posted references, and I know you are familiar with adding your own roses, could you have changed this hardiness rating yourself? HelpMeFind always needs more volunteer administrators.
Reply #4 of 5 posted 2 days ago by Byrnes, Robert L.
Patricia, I don’t believe that I have the ability to change any listing other than my own or ones that I’ve added on behalf of someone else. I’d welcome the ability to volunteer. Thank you.
Reply #5 of 5 posted 2 days ago by Patricia Routley
Contact Admin. Main page, in the yellow bar, CONTACT US.
Discussion id : 107-559
most recent 2 days ago SHOW ALL
Initial post 24 JAN by CybeRose
Dr. Neubert's Deutsches Garten-Magazin, Volume 37: 5-8
Kletterrosen für den Norden
Rudolph Geschwind

pp. 6-7
1) Erinnerung an Brod, eine Hybride, die schon als Strauch gezogen die Neigung zum Hängen zeigt, hochstämmig veredelt, in gutem Boden aber zwei Meter lange Jahrestriebe macht, die im Zustande der Blüte bis zur Erde herabhängen. Die Blüte ist nahezu purpurn oder veilchenblau gefärbt und in dieser Farbe die einzige Rose, die sich einem wirklichen Blau in etwas nähert*). Von ferne gesehen erscheinen einzelne besonders dunkel gefärbte Blüten fast schwarz. Die einzelne grosse Blume ist dabei regelmässig kompakt gebaut und dicht gefüllt (ohne Staubgefrisse). Diese Rose, welche bei Herrn Franz Deegen junior in Köstritz Probe blüht, ist wegen ihrer düsteren Farbe die allerbeste und effektreichste Trauerrose für Gräber, um so mehr da sie dem strengsten Winter Trotz bietet.

*) Sie hätte ebensoviel Recht, eine blaue genannt zu werden, wie die Remontantrose Alsace-Loraine als schwarz bezeichnet wird, und ist weit eher eine Violacea als die Moosrose dieses Namens.
Reply #1 of 12 posted 24 JAN by Jay-Jay
Thank you for this reference!
Reply #2 of 12 posted 26 JAN by CybeRose
I think this note, or one like it, contributed to the old story that 'Erinnerung an Brod' was bred from 'Veilchenblau'. In fact, Geschwind was merely indicating that this rose was violet-blue - the color of March violets.
Reply #3 of 12 posted 26 JAN by Jay-Jay
I understood that, but could imagine, that it's genes were/could be used to get a blue rose.
The whole quote caught me,

But what really struck me was this: " so mehr da sie dem strengsten Winter Trotz bietet."
It really is a rose for the Northern Regions.
I would never have thought of the idea to use it as a mourning rose on a grave.
For me this rose is every Spring a real feast!
Never thought of using it as a solitaire too, for it has lanky canes, that need support... at least at my place.
And trained as a climber, one looks into the hart of every flower. But because it has flowers at lower levels too, one can take a sniff, every time one passes.
When it flowers, I go out, just before going to sleep, or even in my pajamas to to get a high/flush of its fragrance.
Reply #4 of 12 posted 26 JAN by Jay-Jay
PS: As You might have noticed in the past, this quirky rose is one of my favorites. And whenever I can, I promote it, show it to others. And often, they fall in love too.
Reply #5 of 12 posted 26 JAN by Andrew from Dolton
Partly due to Jay-Jay's enthusing about this rose I ordered a very expensive one, (because I had to transfer money), from a European nursery. It will flower for the first time this year, I'm very excited. My theory is that the blue colour in roses originates from 'Tuscany'.
Reply #6 of 12 posted 27 JAN by CybeRose
I was looking for more info on 'Tuscany' when I learned that "Tuscan Red" is a color. According to Wikipedia:
"The first recorded use of Tuscan red as a color name in English was in the early 1800s (exact date uncertain)."

Coincidentally, the old Velvet Rose, R. Holosericea, seems to have picked up the name 'Tuscany' at about the same time. Could it be that the rose was renamed for its color, rather than for any supposed association with Tuscany?
Reply #7 of 12 posted 27 JAN by Andrew from Dolton
There is a vague area between 'Tuscany Superb' and dark hybrid perpetuals like 'Génie de Châteaubriand', I'm sure the two must be connected.
Reply #8 of 12 posted 28 JAN by CybeRose
I am not arguing. I am trying to get it clear in my mind whether 'Tuscany' was the same as the old Velvet/Holosericea, or a new variety. Neill (1823) was not entirely clear on the point.

Victoria, dark and double, superior to the Tuscany.
Parson, do. do. equal to the Tuscany.
Mount Etna, dark and double.
Mount Vesuvius, do. do.
Vagrant, do. do.
The above five raised from the double Velvet, R. Gallica.

He seems to have been saying that 'Tuscany' was not the same as the double Velvet. However, it might have been a seedling of the Velvet, like Brown's roses listed above.
Reply #9 of 12 posted 28 JAN by Andrew from Dolton
Which ever is the oldest cultivar of these dark purple varieties could be the root of blueness in roses, maybe even a variety like 'Violacea', is there a completely single dark gallica or centifolia type?
At the other end of the time line could they have given their genes to hybrids like the "mauve ramblers" or 'Stirling Silver'?
Reply #10 of 12 posted 29 JAN by CybeRose
There are different types of "blue" in roses.
1) Vacuolar anthocyanic inclusions (AVIs) can be found in L’Evêque (1815), Bleu Magenta (1933) and 'Rhapsody in Blue' (2000), among others..
2) Rosacyanins are complex compounds based on an anthocyanin. 'Sterling Silver', 'Mme Violet' and 'Blue Moon' are examples. 'Morning Mist', another rose from Fisher, apparently shared these rosacyanins, which presumably come from 'Grey Pearl'.
3) Osawa: Copigmentation of Anthocyanins (1982)
Harborne (1961) attributed the color of blue roses to copigmentation of cyanin with gallotannin or leucocyanidin. K. Toki, N. Saito, M. Yokoi, and Y. Osawa (unpublished results) found that there is no difference in the basic flavonoid pattern between red and blue roses, but the concentration ratio of flavonols to cyanin varies considerably between the two types of roses: it is 30 to 50 in blue roses and only 1 to 3 in red roses. Suspecting copigmentation, they prepared mixed solutions containing 5 x 10-4 M cyanin and varying concentrations of quercitrin, a major flavonol of blue roses.
Reply #11 of 12 posted 5 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
CybeRose, I have been mulling over your reply, it's interesting thank you. I don't know how relevant this is but very few types of flower have a full range of colours covering the entire spectrum. One genus that comes to mind is Primula, in particular vulgaris, the common primrose and polyanthus the florist's primrose. In the wild vulgaris is pale yellow with occasional rare white of pale pink variants. Polyanthus are a mix of Primula vulgaris, veris and elatior the primrose, cowslip and oxlip. I have only once seen a red variant of P. veris in the wild. But these have been bred to have every single colour from the spectrum including pale blue, dark blue, rich purple, brown and green, any shade imaginable, yet the wild plants show very little variation.
Reply #12 of 12 posted 2 days ago by CybeRose
Delphiniums have come pretty close to a full spectrum, but the genus does have a few yellows and reds to get the party started. Irises haven't yet managed a true red, but there are enough brown-reds and lilac reds to compensate. Greens have been raised, but have not become fashionable.
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