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Discussion id : 111-687
most recent yesterday HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 3 days ago by Robert Neil Rippetoe
Why do so many listings present as, "thornless (or almost)", when very clearly they are not?

Is this part of the default system at HMF?

If so it really needs to be corrected.

Thanks, Robert
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Reply #1 of 5 posted 2 days ago by Patricia Routley
HelpMeFind has just two choices:
1. armed with thorns / prickles
2. thornless (or almost)
(for which I am a little pleased actually, as I have rose bushes here which on occasions can have four prickly canes, and one utterly smooth cane.)

The source link (David Austin website) says of 'Carolyn Knight': apart from colour, all other characteristics are the same as 'Summer Song' from which it sported.

The U.S. patent for 'Summer Song' says:
Prickles: Quantity.--On main canes from base: Ordinary, 4 per 10 cm stem length. On laterals from main canes: Ordinary, 5 per 10 cm per stem length. Form.--Concave curved inward. Length.--9 mm. Color when young.--Greyed-Purple Group 185A with Yellow-Green Group 146D at tip. Color when mature.--Greyed-Orange Group 164A at base, Greyed-Purple Group 184B at tip and along upper edge. Small prickles: Quantity.--On main stalks: None. On laterals: None.

If you can work out from that what we should list, we would be delighted to correct things.
You might like to see some homework I did to teach me about prickles years ago:

PRICKLES (prickles, bristles and glands)
Thorns spring from the wood. Stiff and immovable. A Bougainvillea has thorns
Prickles grow from the bark and can be easily rubbed off. Roses have prickles. Stiff and immovable.
Bristles can be moved as the hairs in a brush

Prickle Colour Immature _______ Mature _______ Old ________
____________ red, brown, grey, white, black

Prickle Duration
Caducous when they fall with or after the leaves and don’t stay on the wood long than 2 years.
Persistent when they become entirely woody, very hard and stay several years on the old wood.

Prickles - Where and number
Thornless; Almost thornless; Few thorns; Prickly;
Sparse (placed without order here and there); Grouped (several close together at certain places, while lacking in other place); Close-set; Dispersed; Scattered; Bristles (gallica); Intermingled with bristles (centifolia); Single; In pairs; Geminate (placed in pairs); Often paired; Infrastipular or stipulary (just below the base of a leaf or stipule)

Prickle - Shape
Simple; Compound (as in R. simplicifolia (Hulthemia persica); Alike - (all straight or all hooked);
Dissimilar (some straight, others hooked); Sharp spines; Thin sharp; Needle-shaped; Curved; Large curved (tea, bourbon); Slightly curved; In an Arc; Hooked; Very hooked; Falcate (hooked like a sickle); Straight; Nearly straight (alba) ; Flattened; Thin; Slender; Thick; Wide; Broad at base; Narrow at base; Width variable; Dilated at the base; Base enlarged; Base thick; Base compressed; Base decurrent (prolonged stemwards); Winged thorns; Wing-shaped; Thorny; Strong; Fierce; Weak (easily pushed off - gallica); Short; Long; Equal; Unequal;
Prickle - Size____________

Bristles
Colour ______________;
Bristles can be moved as the hairs in a brush. Bristles; Rare; Sparse; Grouped; Numerous; Innumerable; Close-set; Stiff; Soft; Equal; Unequal; glandulose (topped by a gland; Stiff glandular hairs; Aciculi (needles); Setiform - thorns degenerated into bristles.

Glands
Colour ______; Sessile (no stalk); Pedicellate (stalk) ; Spherical; Oval; Disformed (irregular form);
Fragrant; Scentless; viscous.
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Reply #2 of 5 posted 2 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
I just looked at 'Summer Song' and the older growths have a few prickles scattered amongst them. However, there is a new shoot about 1M long and that is liberally armed with longish rather flat hooked prickles all along its length. From the photograph you can see the difference between the raspberry-purple coloured and greyish colour of the new and old prickles.
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Reply #3 of 5 posted 2 days ago by Robert Neil Rippetoe
Options given for entry at HMF are inadequate.

As any rose grower will tell you, very few are "thornless or almost".

The flaw in the system makes it impossible to discern those which truly are.

It's too bad this wasn't caught years ago because correcting all the entries is going to be an onerous chore.

In the future there will be many which are truly smooth. Breeders are making this possible.

"Thornless" is a poor choice of words in the first place as taxonomists tell us roses have prickles not thorns.

The software needs an update.

Thanks, Robert
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Reply #4 of 5 posted 2 days ago by Patricia Routley
I have changed 'Carolyn Knight' to "armed with thorns / prickles".
Yes, it is too bad, and it will be an onerous chore. Do you want to help?
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Reply #5 of 5 posted yesterday by Robert Neil Rippetoe
Patricia,

You do have a way of coming right to the the point. I appreciate that.

Has anyone defined yet how to be more precise in categorization?

If changes are to be made, they really must be made right, or as best possible.

Should prickle size be part of the equation?

It's daunting to think of the labor needed.

I wonder if anyone might come up with an algorithm that would clean up most listings in one fell swoop?

I mean most are going to fall into an "average" category.

Having the discussion is a step in the right direction.

Thanks, Robert
REPLY
Discussion id : 111-658
most recent 2 days ago HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 4 days ago by Les Racines du Vent
There is something reminiscent of Rosa majalis in Rosa x suionum (pubescence on young shoots, brownich red wood...). In my opinion, it doesn't look like an alba, neither a centifolia, so my guess is that the rose currently known as 'Minette' might not be the original or (as it oftens happens so) the original classification was a bit loose, if i may say.
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Reply #1 of 3 posted 3 days ago by Nastarana
What this rose does resemble is 'Jeremiah Pink' from High Country Roses. JP is a found rose from Fairmont Cemetery in Denver. It could surely have been brought to North America from Scandinavia and found its way to Denver. JP in my view also does not resemble an alba. It does give one profuse flowering in spring and makes a rather attractive shrub the rest of the season. I have it planted along the property line which in my view is the best use of it.
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Reply #2 of 3 posted 3 days ago by Les Racines du Vent
You're lucky if it makes an attractive shrub! in my climate (french Jura) the blooms, indeed, ball to the point where you only get a few flowers to open each year and as for the shrub, it doesn't do well enough to be of ornamental value out of blooming time: the growth is rather stiff, not really dense nor of elegant habit and the foliage too scarce in my opinion.
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Reply #3 of 3 posted 2 days ago by Nastarana
The blooms don't ball for me at all. As for the shrub, by no stretch of anyone's imagination can my yard be described as landscaped. JP grows and grows and grows into a large shrub of I would say medium density which provides adequate screening between two yards and the foliage is a rather attractive (to me) grass green color. The leaflets are smaller, rounder and lighter in color than typical greyish green alba foliage. I prune once a year after flowering. JP will tolerate pruning and will blithely grow back from a hard prune. I have found that removing a third or even slightly more of the long and flexible canes won't compromise the next year's flowering.

I truly do not know if my JP is or is not really 'Minette' or "Banshee". The HCR catalogue suggests that it might be. I do suspect that "Banshee" must have been an introduced rose, and not a spontaneous hybrid.
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Discussion id : 90-178
most recent 2 days ago SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 7 JAN 16 by AquaEyes
Has this been compared to 'Francis E. Lester'?

http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.2836

:-)

~Christopher
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Reply #1 of 4 posted 2 days ago by Tearose
I took a piece of FEL with me a few years ago when I was going to San Juan Bautista. I held my piece against the plant there and couldn't find any difference. I'm pretty sure all the old climbers in that part of the park came from Roses of Yesterday, with the clincher being that the rose they had labeled a multiflora turned out to be Laure Davoust, which Francis Lester had found and sold under the name Marjorie Lester.
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Reply #2 of 4 posted 2 days ago by Patricia Routley
Shall I merge "San Juan Musk" with 'Frances E. Lester'?
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Reply #3 of 4 posted 2 days ago by Tearose
Yes.
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Reply #4 of 4 posted 2 days ago by Patricia Routley
Done. (I seem to have a memory of the two of us tiredly resting on a rock somewhere out of Dunedin, New Zealand in 2005 and asking each other: what are you going to do in the future.)
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Discussion id : 75-190
most recent yesterday SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 19 NOV 13 by Amy's Idaho Rose Garden
I also did research on Simsalabim. I have wanted it forever and could never get my hands on it.
The word is Scandinavian in origin. Appeared in a America in the 1900 used in a magic show, by a magician named Dante.
And yes Sim Sala Bim = Abracadabra.

Funny I had some thought about how much Simsalabim pictures looked like my Abracadabra!
Thank you Kim for bringing this up.
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Reply #1 of 4 posted 2 days ago by Xoan Mos
Hi,
I am looking for a rose called abracadabra.
Can anyone point me to where I can get a cutting???
Much appreciated,
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Reply #2 of 4 posted 2 days ago by AzRoseLady
I do not know about a cutting. You can buy a rooted plant from forloveofroses.com
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Reply #3 of 4 posted yesterday by Xoan Mos
AzRose Lady,
Thank you so much for this its really helpful.
I visited the site and found similar roses but I couldn't find the Abracadabra.
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Reply #4 of 4 posted yesterday by AzRoseLady
It is under Floribunda. That is its current classification.
https://forloveofroses.com/product-category/floribunda-roses/
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