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Initial post 2 days ago by Patricia Routley
Do you think you should reassign this photo to the rose 'Rosa Mundi'?
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Initial post 30 JUL 14 by Palustris
I have found a couple of plants of this rambler in the Woods Hole and Falmouth regions of Cape Cod where Michael Walsh sold roses and hybridized them 100 years ago. This rambler with its flowers that vary from white to crimson does not match the description of any in his catalog. We do know from his catalogs, though, that he sold ramblers from other hybridizers such as 'Silver Moon', 'Turner's Crimson Rambler' and 'Ghislane de Feligond'.

I would like to know if anyone recognises this rambler.
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Reply #1 of 11 posted 30 JUL 14 by Jay-Jay
Might this possibly be Excelsa? See http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.240631
It reminded me of Fernande Krier a sport of Excelsa.
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Reply #2 of 11 posted 31 JUL 14 by Palustris
'Excelsa' is very common in this area, but the rose in the photos is quite distinctive. Excelsa's flower clusters are quite uniform in coloring starting out a crimson and fading to a deep pink and finally to a "dusty" pink. The rose in question has flower clusters where some flowers are crimson, others pink and a few almost white. It is quite an unusual rose and most likely 100 years old because it is found growing with other roses bred by Michael Walsh and sold by him.

Fernande Krier is an interesting suggestion, but the photos here on HMF don't appear to be of the same rose; although it is certainly similar. Could it be another sport of Excelsa?
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Reply #3 of 11 posted 31 JUL 14 by Jay-Jay
As I said, it reminded me of Fernande Krier. And it could be another sport... Fernande Krier does also sport back and why not partially?
I'm not an expert, but just a rose-lover. Maybe some-one else might shine his/her light on this-one.
Good luck!
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Reply #4 of 11 posted 31 JUL 14 by Patricia Routley
I once saw a photo of 'Harlequin' that Pat Toolan took in Sangerhausen. My memory of it tells me it was very much the same as the photos of 'Fernande Krier'. They are both sports of 'Excelsa'. I had a 20 minute look in the UK Annuals this morning, but couldn't see anything relevant.
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Reply #5 of 11 posted 4 days ago by Palustris
Now that 'Excelsa' in my garden has done the same thing, I think we can be certain that it is 'Excelsa'.
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Reply #6 of 11 posted 4 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
Palustris, are some of the 'Excelsa' flowers completely double with a button eye?
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Reply #7 of 11 posted 3 days ago by Palustris
No Andrew, I have not seen that. 'Excelsa' when fully open on a healthy plant, shows a small circle of golden stamens and the flower opens to slightly "flared". The base of the petals is white. See http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.178094.
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Reply #8 of 11 posted 3 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
Sorry I wrote the message in a moment of confusion about the rose picture you posted on 30/7/18 which looks like it has button eyes.
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Reply #9 of 11 posted 3 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
Now, I just discovered this rose growing in half a dozen gardens in Dolton. By far the largest plant is in a hedgerow belonging to a fairly recently built house, the owners said it was there when they moved in and had not a clue what it was called. The receptacles and pedicle are hairy and lots of sprays carry flowers with up to half the petals a much darker pink. They open rose pink but fade to almost white with dark pink spotting. Unlike a lot of this type of rose the prickles are sickle shaped and the leaves paler than 'American Pillar' and 'Excelsa'. I thought at first of the rose at Woods Hole...
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Reply #10 of 11 posted 2 days ago by Palustris
At first sight, it looks remarkably l like the 'Debutante' grown at the Woods Hole Historical Museum. However, upon closer inspection the leaves are the wrong shape and the flower stems don't seem to have as many small prickles. I have uploaded two more photos of 'Debutante' attempting to show both these issues.

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.1484.1&tab=36
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Reply #11 of 11 posted 2 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
The pictures are interesting. The Dolton rose does not have many prickles at all and those that it has are small and thin. The flower stems are very smooth and prickle free although the receptacles are bristly. There are tiny prickles on the mid rib underneath the leaves.
Just being devil's advocate, did Woods Hole ever go through a period of neglect or do you think a careless gardener might have at some point muddled the rose labels up? I have to say it would be very intriguing to find out the U.K. D├ębutante was wrong! If it is what on earth is it?

Did you hear from Dan Russo yet?
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Initial post 3 days ago by hannes
Sorry to see that none of our knowledgeable North American rose friends has chimed in here so far. However, I now have confirmation from Sangerhausen: The rose 'Langford' had been listed wrongly for quite some time as 'Longford' (most possibly due to a typo). The wrong classification as Hybrid Helena is possibly in connection with a mistake in the 1970 edition of the printed Sangerhausen rose directory. Both plants grown at Sangerhausen are consistent with the description of the Hybrid Setigera named 'Langford'.
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Reply #1 of 3 posted 3 days ago by Margit Schowalter
Hannes

Yes, the information from Sangerhausen is correct and the "Longford" reference should be merged with "Langford". The rose was lost in Canada and only recently has been imported from Sangerhausen and is now grown in the Montreal Botanic Garden in Montreal, Quebec, Canada.
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Reply #2 of 3 posted 3 days ago by hannes
Thank you, Margit. It is good to hear that 'Langford' is grown again in Canada and this is one more instance for the importance of a rose collection like the Europa Rosarium Sangerhausen.
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Reply #3 of 3 posted 2 days ago by Patricia Routley
Merged. I think it is all correct now.
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Initial post 3 days ago by Michael Garhart
The photos in my books show a floribunda w/ small HT form, with the color is between brick red and coral. Reverse slightly darker than the face.
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