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Initial post yesterday by Erik29
For information, the Clematis Bagatelle described as Bred circa 1930 was as novelty onthe catalogue of the german nursery Goos & Koenemann with no information about the breeder.
Erik Benoit (Head gardener of the Parc de Bagatelle, Paris)
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Initial post yesterday by Jay-Jay
Absolutely NOT Erinnerung an Brod! Where did You buy this-one?
It also doesn't look like Souvenir du Docteur Jamain.
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Initial post 2 days ago by Ozoldroser
"Vine View Dk Red Purple" I would like to make a new file for this rose. Alerted to this garden in Williamstown, South Australia by the owner in April 2014. At first I thought it was a HP but not so sure now. This cutting grown plant is in some shade and is regularly watered with rainwater and fertilised
Reply #1 of 5 posted 2 days ago by Jay-Jay
Reminds me a bit of Souvenir du Docteur Jamain. (See my post of may 6 2017 for that rose)
Reply #2 of 5 posted 2 days ago by Patricia Routley
New file for "Vine View Dark Red Purple" opened and photos moved. I will comment further in that file.
Reply #3 of 5 posted yesterday by Ozoldroser
Thank you Jay-Jay many of the descriptions of 'Souvenir du Dr. Jamain' fit this rose. Perfume I would rate higher though.
Reply #4 of 5 posted yesterday by Jay-Jay
I would rate it (much) higher too, as You might read in one comment for that rose.
Lots of people, that visit our garden, fell as a block for this rose, mainly due to the scent, but to the color, the ability to grow in the (partial) shade and the (almost) lack of prickles too.
It stands at the entrance of our garden to be sniffed regularly, when flowering... and that's what I do.

PS: Members rate the scent as excellent too.
Maybe an idea to rate scent in:
- absent
- faint
- present
- strong
- very strong
- overwhelming
Reply #5 of 5 posted yesterday by Ozoldroser
Thank you Jay-Jay.
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Initial post 21 FEB by Margaret Furness
Tea IDs are often messy. I'm told that the rose sold as Dr Grill in Australia is usually William R Smith, and the true Dr Grill may be the rose sold in Australia as Comtesse Riza du Parc.
Elsewhere it is also complicated: see the description page. "'Dr. Grill' in USA is not the original rose. 'Mme Lombard' is sold in Europe sometimes as 'Dr. Grill'."
Reply #1 of 36 posted 22 FEB by HubertG
Although I can't be sure if the rose I grow is the real Dr Grill, I can't see it as being William R Smith. Although I haven't grown that rose, it is described almost invariably in the early references as white (or creamy white) blushed with pink. I can't see anyone using that description to describe the rose I grow as Dr Grill. It also doesn't look like many of the photos of William R Smith here. The rose grown is Australia as Comtesse Riza du Parc from the photos here looks too compact and bushy to match the angular semi-hybrid tea habit early references describe and that my Dr Grill has. Also, mine does have the 'hay' scent that is uniquely described in an early Hazlewood catalogue.
I wish we could do DNA testing on this rose and compare it to Antoine Rivoire and Mme Abel Chatenay, offspring of Dr Grill.
Reply #2 of 36 posted 22 FEB by Margaret Furness
Where did your Dr Grill come from? A year or two ago I would have been itching to grow it at Renmark beside all the other Teas we've gathered, but the future of that property and its maintenance are so uncertain that there's no point in planting more there. Nevertheless it would be nice to grow it somewhere where it could be compared directly.
Reply #3 of 36 posted 22 FEB by HubertG
I'm pretty sure that I bought it at Bowen Mountain (Honeysuckle Nursery?) as a potted specimen, maybe 8-9 years ago. The buds and flowers come more coppery yellow in the shade and pink in the sun. I'm pretty sure its first flowers after the nursery were coppery yellow - I'll try to find some really old photos of it to post. The colour is rather variable.
Reply #4 of 36 posted 22 FEB by Patricia Routley
Check out the Note on the "Comtesse Riza du Parc (in commerce as, in Australia)" page. You might find it valuable to photograph the bud and pedicel exactly side-on, as the asymmetry mentioned in the Note is only slight.
Reply #5 of 36 posted 23 FEB by HubertG
The receptacles on the Australian 'Comtesse Riza du Parc' look rather ovoid whereas the receptacles on my Dr Grill really don't constrict towards the base of the sepals. They don't look to be the same rose to me. Also from the descriptions Australian CRdP appears to readily set many hips, and my Dr Grill does set hips but not prolifically. The flowers are fully double and I think you need a keen bee to get to the stigmas. I've never seen mildew on mine either but that could just be growing conditions.
Here's a bud I took just 2 weeks ago. It isn't directly in profile but it gives you an idea. You can see from the leaves it needs a feed. I'll post some photos of developing hips on the weekend. Luckily, I'm a bit lazy regarding deadheading.

Incidentally, I just uploaded a very good early photograph of William R Smith. The bud shown in this detailed black and white photo is rather stout. I don't think it's my Dr Grill.
Reply #6 of 36 posted 23 FEB by billy teabag
What's your rose like in the balled blooms department HubertG? Are they usually as clean as the ones in your photos or does it make unsightly ones when conditions aren't to its liking?
You describe the plant habit as angular semi-hybrid tea - would you say the stems are relatively stout and strong?

Unless the bud in your photo is atypical, I'd agree it's definitely not "Not Comtesse Riza du Parc" - though that rose takes regular and diligent light snickering to achieve a compact and bushy habit. Left to its own devices "Not Comtesse Riza du Parc" is an angular and ungainly rose - a very prickly one too, with mean prickles right up to the bracts just beneath the bud. The receptacles are invariably constricted at the top - and it likes to make a large hip full of seeds for every untrimmed bloom. Like you, I would love to see a DNA comparison of the various Dr Grill contenders with Mme Abel Chatenay. David Ruston said he has seen five and he liked the William R Smith one the best!

Our attempts to trace the provenance of the roses sold by Honeysuckle Cottage Nursery were unsuccessful. Most nurseries we contacted were happy to share that information but the proprietor did not respond to our requests. We understand that the proprietor received many of her roses from Heather and Roy Rumsey, but I cannot say for certain that Rumsey's Nursery was the source of her Dr Grill.

For what it's worth, Heather Rumsey imported a rose named Dr Grill from Sangerhausen in the late 1970s/ early 1980s which went on to be widely distributed among Australian rose nurseries. This proved to be 'William R. Smith'.

The pedicel of your rose looks smooth in your photo of the bud - would you mind checking whether it's completely smooth or if it has some stalked glands or small bristles? Another thing to check is whether the hips contain any seeds or if they are just full of fibrous material.

Thanks for the photo of 'William R. Smith'.
Reply #7 of 36 posted 23 FEB by HubertG
BIlly Teabag, I've never really seen my bush ball as such - it does open well - but the petal edges are frequently slightly marked and brownish. Not too badly to ruin the flower's overall appearance but it's nicer to take a photo of a spotless rose. Even the ones I've posted with rain drops on them still opened well.

The stems are slightly thicker than the average tea, but I wouldn't say the stems are particularly short, more medium length. It's somewhat ungainly because it tends to throw shoots up from anywhere on the plant. I prune it moderately. otherwise it would get quite big. If this is the real Dr Grill I imagine it would get some of its vigour from its Noisette parent Ophirie, although I'm only speculating. The leaves are a bit larger than an average tea as well. I don't think it's the Australian version of Comtesse Riza du Parc either.

That bud I posted is fairly typical. I've never noticed any glands on the stem but I'll check tomorrow, and I've never opened up one of the hips before so I can't comment on the seed content.

Here's a photo that I wasn't going to post but you can see what I mean about the petals being slightly marked. This is fairly typical. I picked a particularly large 'Agnes Smith' and photographed it next to my Dr Grill for size comparison. You can also see the difference in the two pinks, Agnes (left) being clear and Dr Grill (right) being more fawn. Also, the petals of my Dr Grill usually fall off fairly cleanly, but the centre petals come away first often leaving just the outside five petals on till last.

You are welcome about the W R Smith photo. It's a real find because it must date to the time of its introduction and it is very clear too.
Reply #8 of 36 posted 24 FEB by HubertG
Here are a few hips of my Dr Grill. One I estimate to be from the October flush, so about 4 months old and just beginning to colour a bit. It's about 2.5cm across. The others are developing hips from only about 5 weeks ago, so are a lot smaller.
The stems are indeed smooth - no bristles anywhere. It isn't overly thorny - the thorns in the photos are typical. I will wait until the hips are ripe before I open them because I thought it would be fun to try and germinate some seeds.
Reply #9 of 36 posted 26 FEB by HubertG
I've just posted a few more photos of my Dr Grill from 2016 which show a more coppery yellow predominating. They are all from my one bush.
Reply #10 of 36 posted 26 FEB by Patricia Routley
Blooms of many tea roses are quite changeable in their colour. Take a look at Billy Teabag's photo of ' William R. Smith' at Araluen Botanic Park, near Perth, Western Australia, Spring 2011. You need to photograph your whole bush, showing the skeleton of it if you can.
Reply #11 of 36 posted 26 FEB by HubertG
Even if William R Smith comes yellowy at times, my Dr Grill is never white or creamy white flushed pink, so I still can't see it as being W R Smith.
Billy's WRSmith has rather brownish red flower stems like in the George C Thomas 1914 photo, mine are always green. This could just be a cultivation thing - I don't know. I don't think it's your Amelia Anderson either because mine doesn't ball. Some of the photos here of WRSmith certainly look as if they are different roses. There seems to be a lot of confusion around.
It's interesting that Jedmar has posted a Charles Dingee from Sangerhausen and the Rumsey's imported a Dr Grill from Sangerhausen as well. At least this suggests they had two separate roses.
Reply #12 of 36 posted 26 FEB by billy teabag
And Margaret's pink ones!!!
That plant at Araluen is magnificent! There are two really strong and healthy plants at Araluen - one came to them as "BL Amelia Anderson" and the other as "Dr Grill [ex Sangerhausen]".
The two plants in my garden are not as pleasing. One came from the same source as Araluen's "Dr Grill [ex Sangerhausen]" and the other was propagated from a very old plant of 'W.R. Smith' in a garden in Guildford. They produce absolutely beautiful blooms at times but have been slow to build up their skeletons and they look very ungainly and lop-sided compared with the bushes at Araluen. They seem to be heavy feeders and are one of the first roses in the garden to tell me I'm late with their food.
I usually either cut the blooms or deadhead them, so will leave the next ones on to see whether they make any hips here.
Reply #13 of 36 posted 26 FEB by HubertG
My Dr Grill is never THAT pink!
Billy, do you have any photos of the flowers of the old plant from Guildford of W R Smith?

So your photo of William R Smith (photo ID 184609) is Dr Grill from Sangerhausen?
Reply #14 of 36 posted 26 FEB by billy teabag
I haven't seen them that pink on mine either (yet) but Teas are full of surprises and as soon as you say 'never', they are likely to do something bizarre. Most Teas vary in colour and form with the seasons but the really odd variations often happen a few weeks after extreme fluctuations in temperature or extreme weather events.
I have slides of the old plant in Guildford but haven't had them digitised. You can take my word for it that it's the same as "Dr Grill [ex Sangerhausen]" and "Bishops Lodge Amelia Anderson".
I'll have a look through my photo files to see if there are any photos of the plant propagated from it.

(Yes - the provenance of 'W.R. Smith' photographed at Araluen can be traced back to the rose Heather Rumsey received from Sangerhausen as Dr Grill.)
Reply #15 of 36 posted 26 FEB by HubertG
Thanks. An old known specimen of W R Smith would be very interesting to view.
When I search for Bishop's Lodge Amelia Anderson it just takes me to William R Smith. They are definitely the same rose?
Reply #16 of 36 posted 26 FEB by billy teabag
Yes. David Ruston grew them for many years and so it was possible to compare the established plants over the seasons in his garden. By chance, plants of "Bishops Lodge Amelia Anderson" and "Dr Grill [ex Sangerhausen]" were positioned side by side in Melville's nursery near Perth, and we were able to study them closer to home as well.
Reply #17 of 36 posted 26 FEB by Margaret Furness
It's a survivor in old gardens in at least three states. We have as synonyms "Edna Stapleton's Tea" (SA - that's where mine came from, via Pat) and "East Nanango Forestry Tea" (Qld).
Reply #18 of 36 posted 26 FEB by HubertG
I just uploaded a couple of old catalogue photos of "Charles Dingee". The photos that Billy Teabag just posted of the Guildford WR Smith bears a striking resemblance (and Billy's tea is creamy white and pink - and very beautiful).
Now I want to grow this Guildford W R Smith.
Reply #19 of 36 posted 27 FEB by HubertG
Billy Teabag's W R Smith from Guildford looks most like Jean Harrison's photos of her W R Smith.

Do you know if this particular Guildford specimen is in commerce as I'd like to grow it? Also, it would be fabulous to upload those 2 photos under William R Smith, since they only appear under Q & C.
Reply #20 of 36 posted 1 MAR by HubertG
My specimen of Dr Grill was in fact purchased from Honeysuckle Cottage in 2002, not 8-9 years ago as I mentioned earlier. I found an old dated photo.
Reply #21 of 36 posted 6 MAR by HubertG
Just thinking about the possible origin of my Dr Grill. I bought mine from Honeysuckle Cottage in 2002. Once I also visited another nursery which was nearby to Honeysuckle either at Richmond or Windsor (I can't remember it's name either). It was run by a very elderly gent. Basically it existed of his house surrounded by a paddock full of potted roses. He had the roses I enquired about ready for me when I arrived (Jessie Clark was one). Looking around I remember he had some unusual early Hybrid Tea varieties I hadn't seen in any other nursery. There was a beautiful Columbia that I wish I had purchased at the time, and others I can't remember the names of now. I always had the impression that he had grown these old HT's for years or had sourced them locally. I don't remember him having Dr Grill specifically but I do wonder whether he had this from an old local bush and if Honeysuckle Cottage had purchased some of their stock including their Dr Grill from him because he was so close to them.
This is speculation of course, but I just can't see my Dr Grill being William R Smith; they look too different.
My bush currently has about 10 hips on it, and about the same non-developing or withered hips which doesn't add up if W R Smith is not meant to set hips. Plus my Dr Grill doesn't ball.
Reply #22 of 36 posted 7 MAR by HubertG
Some of the photos of Ah Mow look very much like my Dr Grill, although those petals look a bit more delicate and the foliage looks different.
Reply #23 of 36 posted 9 days ago by HubertG
Just an update on the question of hips. This is the hip from my Dr, Grill that I posted above on 24 Feb (the first photo). There were 10 normal looking seeds inside. I'll plant them and see if there is a good germination rate. There are about 9 other hips on my bush right now that aren't ripe yet.
Reply #24 of 36 posted 9 days ago by billy teabag
HubertG, how does your Dr Grill compare to "Comtesse Riza du Parc [in commerce as]"?
Are the receptacles always the semi-globular shape seen on your bud photo, or are they sometimes more globular like those in the old portraits?
Reply #25 of 36 posted 9 days ago by HubertG
Billy, they aren't the same rose judging from the photos. Mine always has that semi-globular receptacle and perfectly smooth glandless stems, whereas (as you note) the NotCRdP has that distinctive oval receptacle. Also, my Dr Grill flowers are usually solitary (maybe a cluster of 3-4 on a water shoot) whereas 3- 4 flowers per shoot appears to be the norm on the photos of NotCRdP.
Look at the photo by David Elliott (ID176376) of the Dr Grill growing in the Parc de la Tete d'Or. Even though that photo was posted on its side (lol) that looks like my Dr Grill and gives you an idea of the awkward habit that I imagine comes from the Noisette parent. The flowers in the background look the same as mine too. You can also see a few hips if you zoom in. If the NotCRdP sets hips on just about every flower that doesn't sound like the description of Dr Grill in the Rosen-Zeitung that describes an enthusiast being excited over 4-5 ripe hips on their Dr Grill.
How does the NotCRdP smell? My Dr Grill does have that unusual hay scent. I could never quite place what it smelt like until I read the hay reference. Then it was an 'Aha!' moment. I hadn't smelt hay in years and just couldn't put my finger on it.
Reply #26 of 36 posted 9 days ago by Margaret Furness
Well, if you feel inclined to send a few cuttings this way... Who knows, a miracle might happen, and after 4 years of rumours of "imminent purchase of Ruston's" it might just happen. And the air would be full of flying pigs.
Reply #27 of 36 posted 8 days ago by HubertG
Margaret, sure I'll send cuttings to you ladies but it'll have to wait till I collect the hips because I want to try and germinate them. In fact, using the last flush I made a few crosses using Lorraine Lee pollen and a few others. I've become intrigued with my Dr Grill because I didn't know it was so in doubt.
Reply #28 of 36 posted 8 days ago by Margaret Furness
Thank you - when the time comes, contact me via private message for my address. Good luck with the crosses!
Reply #29 of 36 posted 8 days ago by HubertG
Sure Margaret, no worries. Thanks!

Billy, I didn't answer your enquiry about the old portraits.
The receptacles are depicted differently in all three pictures. My Dr. Grill receptacle is closest to the Journal des Roses depiction, but I think my flower form is closest to the Moon painting with the outer "shell like" petals falling away displaying the centre well . The Rosen Zeitung bud receptacle is rather narrow and odd. To be honest I don't think these can be used as any sort of real botanical proof of receptacles, but they are interesting. The accurate depiction of a bud receptacle probably wasn't the greatest priority for the artist whose main purpose was to depict the flower form and colour. That Moon bud could have just been painted in for artistic balance after the main flowers were finished. The Rosen-Zeitung portrait is the hardest from which to make any sort of botanical sense. Also, I think the medium the artist used could make a big difference to the final result. The Moon painting looks like a gouache, but I really don't know how these pictures were technically reproduced back then. Maybe you could look at some of Moon's other paintings of confirmed roses to see how accurately he paints those bud details in them.
Reply #30 of 36 posted 2 days ago by billy teabag
Moon's rose paintings in The Garden were described as naturalistic in style. I have not grown all the roses he painted and cannot speak about the accuracy of the portraits of those varieties but the ones I do know well such as 'Anna Olivier' are botanically faithful portraits.
If only your rose had receptacles matching those in Moon's portrait of 'Dr Grill'!
If, as you say, the receptacles are consistently semi-globular, this point of difference brings doubt.
Does you rose have darker coloured petal reverses?
Reply #33 of 36 posted yesterday by HubertG
Maybe if the "Not Comtesse Riza du Parc" does smell like dried grass it could be Dr Grill.
My rose when it is in pinker mode has a slight difference between both sides of the petals (the backs being slightly darker) but it isn't a pronounced contrast. You can see it in some of my bud photos. You can also get splashes of pink on the base of the reverse.

I noticed that the illustrations of Hugo Roller in The Garden and the Journal des Roses are obviously copied one from the other. Moon's portrait was published first earlier in the same year. It just goes to show that the artist didn't always have a bunch of fresh flowers in front of them when they were drawn. That's why I wouldn't place too much faith in those small details such as the receptacle shape, as there is always artistic licence at play. Note the upside down prickle on the Moon Dr Grill picture. If we took that too literally we'd never identify Dr Grill!

Also I was reading in the Rosen-Zeitung what essentially amounted to an apology by their artist Lena Schmidt Michel, in which she mentions that people are disappointed when they buy a rose based on the drawing and it turns out looking differently.
Reply #36 of 36 posted yesterday by billy teabag
I agree with you that some portraits are deceptive. Apart from the skill of the artist and their commitment to accuracy and the skill of the printer, there are the limitations of the printing processes and materials in play.
It's good that the roses themselves can be the final authority. If we compare roses that have undisputed identities (there are a few that have never lost their names) with the various portraits we come to know which artists are the most accurate and trustworthy.
Some portraits are definitely idealised and some are positively unreliable re detail while others are incredibly accurate.
Alfred Parsons' watercolours show great attention to detail and capture both the natural impression and the finer detail, though the colour reproduction failed them during the printing process.
Accuracy in images was clearly important in many horticultural publications. The first time Moon's portrait of Mme de Watteville was published in The Garden in 1888, the colour reproduction was considered unsatisfactory, so it was republished later that year with notes about this accompanying the plates. (see 'Mme de Watteville' photos and captions on HMF for the details.)
Other examples spring to mind too, where accompanying texts draw readers' attention to inaccuracies in detail, accuracy and labelling
I'm always amazed at the accuracy of the rose portraits in the Wills' cigarette cards. Most of the rose sets are chromolithographs - essentially tiny dot paintings but some are more recognisable than photographs. I read somewhere that accuracy in the cigarette card sets was very important as the eagle eye of the public was always alert to errors and quick to let the cigarette company know in hope of reward.
Reply #31 of 36 posted 2 days ago by billy teabag
"Not Comtesse Riza du Parc" has a base fragrance that is like dried vegetation. Sometimes there are additional notes that vary in intensity and character. Sometimes the dried grass smell has faint floral, fruity or aromatic notes - varying with conditions, time of day etc.
Reply #32 of 36 posted 2 days ago by Jay-Jay
Dried grass smell is called cumarine.
Galium odoratum or the sweetscented bedstraw or sweet woodruff has this scent when contused.
And as we are providing recipes: Very nice in fruit-bowls(fruit-cup) or white wine(German tradition. They call this herb Waldmeister: Master of the woods)
Reply #34 of 36 posted yesterday by billy teabag
Thank you Jay Jay. It would be wonderful to have a trained and educated nose to help with those many maddening 'What IS that familiar smell? moments in the rose garden.
Reply #35 of 36 posted yesterday by Jay-Jay
A good nose is indeed often a bless, but can be a handicap when one is too sensitive as for the nowadays washing detergent- and softener-smells.(I won't call those scented, for me those smells are brutal, invasive and irritate eyes, nose and mind)
...And a handicap (or no go) when wanting to visit people that "odorated" themselves and/or their homes/bathrooms.
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