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Rose Listing Omission
La Virginale alba Dumont de Courset 1802
That information comes from the caption to the photo taken at L'Hay des Roses by ValerieF23.
http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.59917 Unfortunately the photo has been filed under the HP 'Virginale' .
Trevor Griffiths, in My World of Old Roses, has a photo and an entry for an alba named 'La Virginale'. The photo is on page 60 of that book. It shows what looks to be the same rose as appears in the photo by ValerieF23. It shows a white very double flower which does not, to me, resemble 'Great Maiden's Blush'. The flower in both pictures shows green at the center of the bloom, just as do Mme. Hardy and Mme. Plantier.
I hope it is allowed and legal to quote Griffiths' entry.
"La Virginale. A rose which is not very well known. It is pure white and fragrant and very double. The flowers are about 50mm across and are prolific on a 1.5 meter plant with bright green foliage. 'La Virginale' reminds me of another Alba rose, 'Mme. Plantier'."
Photos of that rose and well as of GMB are shown on the facing page 61 in My World of Old Roses, for easy comparison. Griffiths' and ValerieF23's LV is clearly not GMB.
Vintage Gardens was at one time growing a Damask called 'La Virginale' , which, the proprietors told me, was probably the same rose as Griffiths had.
Whether LV is best thought of as an alba or Damask I cannot say, never having seen it, but I think it was or is if it still lives at L'Hay not the same rose as GMB.
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Member Valerie F23 appears not to have been on HelpMeFind for over a year.
I wonder if it is possible that her photo is that of 'Mme. Plantier' mislabelled.
Trevor Griffiths said the rose he had as 'La Virginale' reminded him of 'Mme Plantier' and his photo has the same receptacle and folioles as I see in member Mashamlc's photo of 'Mme. Plantier' taken at San Jose in April 2010.
As far as I can find, the only rose that Dumont de Courset bred was a musk 'Muscade Semi-Double Rose' before 1820.
When looking for 'La Virginale' Brent Dickerson (Old Roses: The Master List 2nd. Ed., p338) refers me on to two pink roses.
There was no 'La Virginale' listed at L'Hay in their 1900 list.
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I have found two more references to 'La Virginale'.
Phillips and Rix, The Quest for the Rose, p. 16. has both a photo and description of an alba they name 'La Virginale'
"La Virginale. an alba. More double than Semi-plena, less double than Maxima. Raised by Moreau-Robert in France, launched in 1840."
The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Roses, ed. Mary Moody, cons. ed. Peter Harkness, 1992, has an entry for 'La Virginale' in the section on albas, p.59. "Origin unknown" this source claims. no photo
Could we possibly have a separate entry for 'La Virginale'? The picture from Martin and Rix does not look like MP or GMB at all. If the M & R photo had not been labeled, I would have said it was alba suavolens.
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#3 of 10 posted
30 SEP 17 by
 jedmar
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All these references are from after 1980. Before we create a new entry for 'La Virginale' we need to see if this name existed in the 19th century, or was it just added to a found rose by Trevor Griffiths. I do not see that 'La Virginale' is mentioned as a synonym for 'Great Maiden's Blush' earlier than 1984 either. This needs some more research.
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#4 of 10 posted
30 SEP 17 by
jedmar
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There actually seems to have been an Alba 'Virginale', bred by the Pépinière de St Cloud, before 1824. However this had semi-double, cluster-flowered blooms.
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Foolish me, here I thought that recent sources meant that the plant actually must be growing somewhere.
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#6 of 10 posted
1 OCT 17 by
jedmar
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Well, there seems to be a rose named 'La Virginale' whose photos have been shown in some publications; however this is most probably not the Alba from St.Cloud. There is history that this alba survived the 19th century. Someone mus have, as usual, "identified" this as 'La Virgianle'. It may be the same as Alba suaveolens, as you thought.
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I only know of Trevor Griffiths through his two books, which I like very much. Was he known for off the top of his head identifications? Would you happen to know if his gardens and rose plantings survived his death?
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#8 of 10 posted
2 OCT 17 by
jedmar
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Patricia, I think you would know better the going-ons in Down Under.
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TG said something like: The worst mistake you can make is to assume that your plant is the correct one.
The Trevor Griffiths Rose Garden is worth looking up.
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I am 3000 miles from New Zealand, and have few N.Z. references.
Trevor spent his life gardening and travelled widely, so I believe he knew his roses. During my 2006 visit to the Trevor Griffiths garden in Timaru as far as I could see, the actual roses in the garden did not correspond exactly with the permanent signage there - and this is quite logical when you think of the changing nature of a garden.
Being on the sidelines of a 2006 conversation in New Zealand, I overheard a discussion wherein the Heritage group were trying to get budwood of any roses from Trevor’s private garden, but there were difficulties.
I have sent a private message to Daphne Whitfort-Smith to see if she can help further.
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