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Initial post 12 days ago by HubertG
From the Rosen-Zeitung, Sep 1913, pg 111

"The Best New Roses for the Years 1910, 1911 and 1912.
TEAS: Mad. G. Serrurier, Mrs. Harold Silberrad, Alice de Rothschild, Lady Hillingdon, Mrs. Foley Hobbs, Mrs. Herbert Stevens, Recuerdo de Antonio Peluffo, Alexander Hill Gray, Charles Dingee."

I've included this quote here because it indicates that William R Smith was imported into and was known in Germany as Charles Dingee. Presumably Sangerhausen's specimen called Charles Dingee (if it hasn't been mixed up) would be William R Smith.
I'm keen to see a mature plant of 'Charles Dingee' from Sangerhausen to compare it to other William R Smiths.
Reply #1 of 4 posted 12 days ago by Patricia Routley
Thank you HubertG. Reference added.
These following two references are of interest in that they quote different parentages - and years. Sorry, I haven't done any research on 'Charles Dingee' but am sure there will be more to be found.

1911, May 20 The Garden, p243
Charles Dingee... Tea, D. and Conard, 1910, (Hermosa x White Maman Cochet)

1911, Aug 19. The Garden, p404
William R. Smith Hybrid Tea, Smith, 1908, (Kaiserin Augusta Victoria x Maman Cochet)
Reply #2 of 4 posted today by HubertG
Dingee's 1918 catalogue lists both Charles Dingee and William R. Smith, so they must be two separate roses.
They emphatically claimed that they were the originators of Charles Dingee (as Hermosa x White Maman Cochet) and promote it as the 'best bush rose in the world'. They also warn of others roses being passed off fraudulently as Charles Dingee.

Despite the confusion over the early distribution and naming of the original William R Smith, it looks very likely that Charles Dingee is a distinctly separate variety and that William R Smith has at some point been passed off as Charles Dingee, hence its existence as a synonym.

There's even a very good photo of "William R Smith" in this 1918 catalogue (besides photos of 'Charles Dingee")
Reply #3 of 4 posted today by HubertG
"Charles Dingee" The Most Wonderful Bush Rose in the World (See the Colored Photographic Illustration on opposite page.)
The Charles Dingee Rose is the result of cross-breeding between Hermosa, that grand old hardy pink variety, and White Maman Cochet, perhaps the greatest of all white garden Roses - a superb parentage, which insures its offspring every point of excellence. With the hardy, vigorous constitution of a Hybrid Perpetual, growing to perfection in almost any soil or situation, it has the most magnificent foliage, absolutely free from disease, that we have ever seen in any Rose.
It is a tremendous grower, the best in our entire list of over 800 varieties. If you have a place where other Roses have failed in that spot, Charles Dingee will flourish and will produce its gorgeous flowers with wonderful profusion. We have had it growing and blooming in all its glory in a temperature very little above freezing. Growing to a height of 2 to 3 feet, Charles Dingee blooms continuously, producing immense, deep, double, grandly formed flowers on long, stiff, erect stems; both in bud and bloom their beauty is nothing short of superb, practically impossible to describe because of the delicate blending of colors - rose tints in the center of flower, gradually shading off into pale blush creamy white, a color effect both entirely new and distinct.
CAUTION We are the originators and sole owners of the Charles Dingee Rose. Imitations and so called duplicates of it are intended to deceive.

From the "Dingee Guide to Rose Culture", 1918, page 3.

Very interesting that it is only 2-3 feet high.
Do you think that HMF should have separate entries for 'Charles Dingee' and 'William R. Smith'?
Reply #4 of 4 posted today by Patricia Routley
Thanks HubertG. I've added the 1918 references.
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Initial post 1 MAR by HubertG
A speculative question about Alexander Hill Gray:-
Reading the earliest descriptions for this rose, two things strike me as being discordant to the rose I've grown as AHG. Firstly the yellow colour is described as deepening as the flower develops (mine always fades) and secondly the tea fragrance is described as strong (mine is tea but very weak).
This rose because of it's fine form was understandably marketed as Yellow Maman Cochet. However another rose Mme Derepas-Matrat, introduced by Buatois in 1897 was also called Yellow Maman Cochet. This rose was thornless or nearly so, with little scent and sometimes flushed pink.
The rose I grow in Australia as AHG is nearly thornless with conspicuously smooth stems, a feature that is missing on the early descriptions of AHG.
I'm wondering if the rose grown in Australia as Alexander Hill Gray is really Mme Derepas-Matrat and has been mixed up due to both being called Yellow Maman Cochet.
Does anyone know the provenance of this rose as grown in Australia? Does anyone find the fragrance of AHG strong?
Reply #1 of 3 posted 1 MAR by Patricia Routley
Thornlessness is mentioned in the 2008 reference and I have added that characteristic to 'Alexander Hill Gray'. Thanks.
Do you have the book Tea Roses. Old Roses for Warm Gardens? Provenance of 'Alexander Hill Gray' is also mentioned on p79.
Reply #2 of 3 posted 1 MAR by HubertG
I googled it and found the reference to it being rediscovered. Thanks. It just seemed odd that when the early catalogues extol and almost exaggerate every virtue of a new rose that the thornless nature wasn't included in early descriptions, and that the other 'Yellow Cochet' was described as thornless. I thought that there might have been a mix up very early on in the 20th century.
My AHG sets hips by the way. Not many, but it does set hips.

The fragrance could never be described as strong though.
Reply #3 of 3 posted today by HubertG
Just an additional note:
Both 'Alex Hill Gray' and 'Yellow Maman Cochet' are offered and described as separate rose varieties in the 1918 'Dingee Guide to Rose Culture' catalogue.

No reference to the 1897 Buatois rose is made as an alternative name for Yellow Maman Cochet, whereas 'Etoile de France' is given as the synonym for 'Crimson Maman Cochet', so it isn't clear whether the variety they offer as 'Yellow Maman Cochet' is really Mme Derepas-Metrat.
'Souvenir de Pierre Notting, the other rose sometimes called the Yellow Maman Cochet, is also listed separately in the Dingee guide, so that isn't their Yellow Cochet either.
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Initial post yesterday by HubertG
Does anyone have doubts about the Souvenir de Therese Levet (sold in Australia) as being the authentic item?
I grew it for a few years and always wondered if it was correct:

- it doesn't set hips. I found one hip once with no seeds. It always seemed strange that it could be the seed parent of General Gallieni when it seemed infertile.
- the base of the petals showed white and never yellow like in some descriptions.
- the red colour of General Gallieni would have derived from SdTL, but they are quite different reds, SdTL was rather pinky crimson.
- there were some characteristics of it that suggested some Hybrid Tea breeding - it never seemed a classic Tea to me.
- It was one of the more popular teas that survived into the 20thC, eg. in the Hazlewood nurseries, and I always wondered what would have been so appealing about the SdTL that I grew. It was a nice enough rose, but I couldn't see why it would have been so much more enduring than many other teas that disappeared by then.

Just bouncing this idea around.
Reply #1 of 3 posted yesterday by Margaret Furness
I think a lot of people consider it closer to HT than Tea (I hoicked mine), but it stays listed as Tea because there are so few deeper red ones now on the market.
Reply #2 of 3 posted today by HubertG
The earliest photographs here by Luanne Wilson and Casa de Rosas look like a different variety to what SdTL is in Australia.
Reply #3 of 3 posted today by Margaret Furness
The buds would pass for the same. Maybe it's wrong all round the world.
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Initial post today by 16-Eichen-Rosenschätze
Once established it repeats reliably.
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