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'Dr. Grill' rose Reviews & Comments
Discussion id : 108-677
most recent 3 OCT 18 SHOW ALL
Initial post 21 FEB 18
* This post deleted by user *
Reply #1 of 54 posted 22 FEB 18 by HubertG
Although I can't be sure if the rose I grow is the real Dr Grill, I can't see it as being William R Smith. Although I haven't grown that rose, it is described almost invariably in the early references as white (or creamy white) blushed with pink. I can't see anyone using that description to describe the rose I grow as Dr Grill. It also doesn't look like many of the photos of William R Smith here. The rose grown is Australia as Comtesse Riza du Parc from the photos here looks too compact and bushy to match the angular semi-hybrid tea habit early references describe and that my Dr Grill has. Also, mine does have the 'hay' scent that is uniquely described in an early Hazlewood catalogue.
I wish we could do DNA testing on this rose and compare it to Antoine Rivoire and Mme Abel Chatenay, offspring of Dr Grill.
Reply #2 of 54 posted 22 FEB 18 by Margaret Furness
Where did your Dr Grill come from? A year or two ago I would have been itching to grow it at Renmark beside all the other Teas we've gathered, but the future of that property and its maintenance are so uncertain that there's no point in planting more there. Nevertheless it would be nice to grow it somewhere where it could be compared directly.
Reply #3 of 54 posted 22 FEB 18 by HubertG
I'm pretty sure that I bought it at Bowen Mountain (Honeysuckle Nursery?) as a potted specimen, maybe 8-9 years ago. The buds and flowers come more coppery yellow in the shade and pink in the sun. I'm pretty sure its first flowers after the nursery were coppery yellow - I'll try to find some really old photos of it to post. The colour is rather variable.
Reply #4 of 54 posted 22 FEB 18 by Patricia Routley
Check out the Note on the "Comtesse Riza du Parc (in commerce as, in Australia)" page. You might find it valuable to photograph the bud and pedicel exactly side-on, as the asymmetry mentioned in the Note is only slight.
Reply #5 of 54 posted 23 FEB 18 by HubertG
The receptacles on the Australian 'Comtesse Riza du Parc' look rather ovoid whereas the receptacles on my Dr Grill really don't constrict towards the base of the sepals. They don't look to be the same rose to me. Also from the descriptions Australian CRdP appears to readily set many hips, and my Dr Grill does set hips but not prolifically. The flowers are fully double and I think you need a keen bee to get to the stigmas. I've never seen mildew on mine either but that could just be growing conditions.
Here's a bud I took just 2 weeks ago. It isn't directly in profile but it gives you an idea. You can see from the leaves it needs a feed. I'll post some photos of developing hips on the weekend. Luckily, I'm a bit lazy regarding deadheading.

Incidentally, I just uploaded a very good early photograph of William R Smith. The bud shown in this detailed black and white photo is rather stout. I don't think it's my Dr Grill.
Reply #6 of 54 posted 23 FEB 18 by billy teabag
What's your rose like in the balled blooms department HubertG? Are they usually as clean as the ones in your photos or does it make unsightly ones when conditions aren't to its liking?
You describe the plant habit as angular semi-hybrid tea - would you say the stems are relatively stout and strong?

Unless the bud in your photo is atypical, I'd agree it's definitely not "Not Comtesse Riza du Parc" - though that rose takes regular and diligent light snickering to achieve a compact and bushy habit. Left to its own devices "Not Comtesse Riza du Parc" is an angular and ungainly rose - a very prickly one too, with mean prickles right up to the bracts just beneath the bud. The receptacles are invariably constricted at the top - and it likes to make a large hip full of seeds for every untrimmed bloom. Like you, I would love to see a DNA comparison of the various Dr Grill contenders with Mme Abel Chatenay. David Ruston said he has seen five and he liked the William R Smith one the best!

Our attempts to trace the provenance of the roses sold by Honeysuckle Cottage Nursery were unsuccessful. Most nurseries we contacted were happy to share that information but the proprietor did not respond to our requests. We understand that the proprietor received many of her roses from Heather and Roy Rumsey, but I cannot say for certain that Rumsey's Nursery was the source of her Dr Grill.

For what it's worth, Heather Rumsey imported a rose named Dr Grill from Sangerhausen in the late 1970s/ early 1980s which went on to be widely distributed among Australian rose nurseries. This proved to be 'William R. Smith'.

The pedicel of your rose looks smooth in your photo of the bud - would you mind checking whether it's completely smooth or if it has some stalked glands or small bristles? Another thing to check is whether the hips contain any seeds or if they are just full of fibrous material.

Thanks for the photo of 'William R. Smith'.
Reply #7 of 54 posted 23 FEB 18 by HubertG
BIlly Teabag, I've never really seen my bush ball as such - it does open well - but the petal edges are frequently slightly marked and brownish. Not too badly to ruin the flower's overall appearance but it's nicer to take a photo of a spotless rose. Even the ones I've posted with rain drops on them still opened well.

The stems are slightly thicker than the average tea, but I wouldn't say the stems are particularly short, more medium length. It's somewhat ungainly because it tends to throw shoots up from anywhere on the plant. I prune it moderately. otherwise it would get quite big. If this is the real Dr Grill I imagine it would get some of its vigour from its Noisette parent Ophirie, although I'm only speculating. The leaves are a bit larger than an average tea as well. I don't think it's the Australian version of Comtesse Riza du Parc either.

That bud I posted is fairly typical. I've never noticed any glands on the stem but I'll check tomorrow, and I've never opened up one of the hips before so I can't comment on the seed content.

Here's a photo that I wasn't going to post but you can see what I mean about the petals being slightly marked. This is fairly typical. I picked a particularly large 'Agnes Smith' and photographed it next to my Dr Grill for size comparison. You can also see the difference in the two pinks, Agnes (left) being clear and Dr Grill (right) being more fawn. Also, the petals of my Dr Grill usually fall off fairly cleanly, but the centre petals come away first often leaving just the outside five petals on till last.

You are welcome about the W R Smith photo. It's a real find because it must date to the time of its introduction and it is very clear too.
Reply #8 of 54 posted 24 FEB 18 by HubertG
Here are a few hips of my Dr Grill. One I estimate to be from the October flush, so about 4 months old and just beginning to colour a bit. It's about 2.5cm across. The others are developing hips from only about 5 weeks ago, so are a lot smaller.
The stems are indeed smooth - no bristles anywhere. It isn't overly thorny - the thorns in the photos are typical. I will wait until the hips are ripe before I open them because I thought it would be fun to try and germinate some seeds.
Reply #9 of 54 posted 26 FEB 18 by HubertG
I've just posted a few more photos of my Dr Grill from 2016 which show a more coppery yellow predominating. They are all from my one bush.
Reply #10 of 54 posted 26 FEB 18 by Patricia Routley
Blooms of many tea roses are quite changeable in their colour. Take a look at Billy Teabag's photo of ' William R. Smith' at Araluen Botanic Park, near Perth, Western Australia, Spring 2011. You need to photograph your whole bush, showing the skeleton of it if you can.
Reply #11 of 54 posted 26 FEB 18 by HubertG
Even if William R Smith comes yellowy at times, my Dr Grill is never white or creamy white flushed pink, so I still can't see it as being W R Smith.
Billy's WRSmith has rather brownish red flower stems like in the George C Thomas 1914 photo, mine are always green. This could just be a cultivation thing - I don't know. I don't think it's your Amelia Anderson either because mine doesn't ball. Some of the photos here of WRSmith certainly look as if they are different roses. There seems to be a lot of confusion around.
It's interesting that Jedmar has posted a Charles Dingee from Sangerhausen and the Rumsey's imported a Dr Grill from Sangerhausen as well. At least this suggests they had two separate roses.
Reply #12 of 54 posted 26 FEB 18 by billy teabag
And Margaret's pink ones!!!
That plant at Araluen is magnificent! There are two really strong and healthy plants at Araluen - one came to them as "BL Amelia Anderson" and the other as "Dr Grill [ex Sangerhausen]".
The two plants in my garden are not as pleasing. One came from the same source as Araluen's "Dr Grill [ex Sangerhausen]" and the other was propagated from a very old plant of 'W.R. Smith' in a garden in Guildford. They produce absolutely beautiful blooms at times but have been slow to build up their skeletons and they look very ungainly and lop-sided compared with the bushes at Araluen. They seem to be heavy feeders and are one of the first roses in the garden to tell me I'm late with their food.
I usually either cut the blooms or deadhead them, so will leave the next ones on to see whether they make any hips here.
Reply #13 of 54 posted 26 FEB 18 by HubertG
My Dr Grill is never THAT pink!
Billy, do you have any photos of the flowers of the old plant from Guildford of W R Smith?

So your photo of William R Smith (photo ID 184609) is Dr Grill from Sangerhausen?
Reply #14 of 54 posted 26 FEB 18 by billy teabag
I haven't seen them that pink on mine either (yet) but Teas are full of surprises and as soon as you say 'never', they are likely to do something bizarre. Most Teas vary in colour and form with the seasons but the really odd variations often happen a few weeks after extreme fluctuations in temperature or extreme weather events.
I have slides of the old plant in Guildford but haven't had them digitised. You can take my word for it that it's the same as "Dr Grill [ex Sangerhausen]" and "Bishops Lodge Amelia Anderson".
I'll have a look through my photo files to see if there are any photos of the plant propagated from it.

(Yes - the provenance of 'W.R. Smith' photographed at Araluen can be traced back to the rose Heather Rumsey received from Sangerhausen as Dr Grill.)
Reply #15 of 54 posted 26 FEB 18 by HubertG
Thanks. An old known specimen of W R Smith would be very interesting to view.
When I search for Bishop's Lodge Amelia Anderson it just takes me to William R Smith. They are definitely the same rose?
Reply #16 of 54 posted 26 FEB 18 by billy teabag
Yes. David Ruston grew them for many years and so it was possible to compare the established plants over the seasons in his garden. By chance, plants of "Bishops Lodge Amelia Anderson" and "Dr Grill [ex Sangerhausen]" were positioned side by side in Melville's nursery near Perth, and we were able to study them closer to home as well.
Reply #17 of 54 posted 26 FEB 18 by Margaret Furness
It's a survivor in old gardens in at least four states. We have as synonyms "Edna Stapleton's Tea" (SA - that's where mine came from, via Pat) and "East Nanango Forestry Tea" (Qld).
Reply #18 of 54 posted 26 FEB 18 by HubertG
I just uploaded a couple of old catalogue photos of "Charles Dingee". The photos that Billy Teabag just posted of the Guildford WR Smith bears a striking resemblance (and Billy's tea is creamy white and pink - and very beautiful).
Now I want to grow this Guildford W R Smith.
Reply #19 of 54 posted 27 FEB 18 by HubertG
Billy Teabag's W R Smith from Guildford looks most like Jean Harrison's photos of her W R Smith.

Do you know if this particular Guildford specimen is in commerce as I'd like to grow it? Also, it would be fabulous to upload those 2 photos under William R Smith, since they only appear under Q & C.
Reply #20 of 54 posted 1 MAR 18 by HubertG
My specimen of Dr Grill was in fact purchased from Honeysuckle Cottage in 2002, not 8-9 years ago as I mentioned earlier. I found an old dated photo.
Reply #21 of 54 posted 6 MAR 18 by HubertG
Just thinking about the possible origin of my Dr Grill. I bought mine from Honeysuckle Cottage in 2002. Once I also visited another nursery which was nearby to Honeysuckle either at Richmond or Windsor (I can't remember it's name either). It was run by a very elderly gent. Basically it existed of his house surrounded by a paddock full of potted roses. He had the roses I enquired about ready for me when I arrived (Jessie Clark was one). Looking around I remember he had some unusual early Hybrid Tea varieties I hadn't seen in any other nursery. There was a beautiful Columbia that I wish I had purchased at the time, and others I can't remember the names of now. I always had the impression that he had grown these old HT's for years or had sourced them locally. I don't remember him having Dr Grill specifically but I do wonder whether he had this from an old local bush and if Honeysuckle Cottage had purchased some of their stock including their Dr Grill from him because he was so close to them.
This is speculation of course, but I just can't see my Dr Grill being William R Smith; they look too different.
My bush currently has about 10 hips on it, and about the same non-developing or withered hips which doesn't add up if W R Smith is not meant to set hips. Plus my Dr Grill doesn't ball.
Reply #22 of 54 posted 7 MAR 18 by HubertG
Some of the photos of Ah Mow look very much like my Dr Grill, although those petals look a bit more delicate and the foliage looks different.
Reply #23 of 54 posted 14 MAR 18 by HubertG
Just an update on the question of hips. This is the hip from my Dr, Grill that I posted above on 24 Feb (the first photo). There were 10 normal looking seeds inside. I'll plant them and see if there is a good germination rate. There are about 9 other hips on my bush right now that aren't ripe yet.
Reply #24 of 54 posted 14 MAR 18 by billy teabag
HubertG, how does your Dr Grill compare to "Comtesse Riza du Parc [in commerce as]"?
Are the receptacles always the semi-globular shape seen on your bud photo, or are they sometimes more globular like those in the old portraits?
Reply #25 of 54 posted 14 MAR 18 by HubertG
Billy, they aren't the same rose judging from the photos. Mine always has that semi-globular receptacle and perfectly smooth glandless stems, whereas (as you note) the NotCRdP has that distinctive oval receptacle. Also, my Dr Grill flowers are usually solitary (maybe a cluster of 3-4 on a water shoot) whereas 3- 4 flowers per shoot appears to be the norm on the photos of NotCRdP.
Look at the photo by David Elliott (ID176376) of the Dr Grill growing in the Parc de la Tete d'Or. Even though that photo was posted on its side (lol) that looks like my Dr Grill and gives you an idea of the awkward habit that I imagine comes from the Noisette parent. The flowers in the background look the same as mine too. You can also see a few hips if you zoom in. If the NotCRdP sets hips on just about every flower that doesn't sound like the description of Dr Grill in the Rosen-Zeitung that describes an enthusiast being excited over 4-5 ripe hips on their Dr Grill.
How does the NotCRdP smell? My Dr Grill does have that unusual hay scent. I could never quite place what it smelt like until I read the hay reference. Then it was an 'Aha!' moment. I hadn't smelt hay in years and just couldn't put my finger on it.
Reply #26 of 54 posted 14 MAR 18 by Margaret Furness
Well, if you feel inclined to send a few cuttings this way... Who knows, a miracle might happen, and after 4 years of rumours of "imminent purchase of Ruston's" it might just happen. And the air would be full of flying pigs.
Reply #27 of 54 posted 15 MAR 18 by HubertG
Margaret, sure I'll send cuttings to you ladies but it'll have to wait till I collect the hips because I want to try and germinate them. In fact, using the last flush I made a few crosses using Lorraine Lee pollen and a few others. I've become intrigued with my Dr Grill because I didn't know it was so in doubt.
Reply #28 of 54 posted 15 MAR 18 by Margaret Furness
Thank you - when the time comes, contact me via private message for my address. Good luck with the crosses!
Reply #29 of 54 posted 15 MAR 18 by HubertG
Sure Margaret, no worries. Thanks!

Billy, I didn't answer your enquiry about the old portraits.
The receptacles are depicted differently in all three pictures. My Dr. Grill receptacle is closest to the Journal des Roses depiction, but I think my flower form is closest to the Moon painting with the outer "shell like" petals falling away displaying the centre well . The Rosen Zeitung bud receptacle is rather narrow and odd. To be honest I don't think these can be used as any sort of real botanical proof of receptacles, but they are interesting. The accurate depiction of a bud receptacle probably wasn't the greatest priority for the artist whose main purpose was to depict the flower form and colour. That Moon bud could have just been painted in for artistic balance after the main flowers were finished. The Rosen-Zeitung portrait is the hardest from which to make any sort of botanical sense. Also, I think the medium the artist used could make a big difference to the final result. The Moon painting looks like a gouache, but I really don't know how these pictures were technically reproduced back then. Maybe you could look at some of Moon's other paintings of confirmed roses to see how accurately he paints those bud details in them.
Reply #30 of 54 posted 21 MAR 18 by billy teabag
Moon's rose paintings in The Garden were described as naturalistic in style. I have not grown all the roses he painted and cannot speak about the accuracy of the portraits of those varieties but the ones I do know well such as 'Anna Olivier' are botanically faithful portraits.
If only your rose had receptacles matching those in Moon's portrait of 'Dr Grill'!
If, as you say, the receptacles are consistently semi-globular, this point of difference brings doubt.
Does you rose have darker coloured petal reverses?
Reply #33 of 54 posted 22 MAR 18 by HubertG
Maybe if the "Not Comtesse Riza du Parc" does smell like dried grass it could be Dr Grill.
My rose when it is in pinker mode has a slight difference between both sides of the petals (the backs being slightly darker) but it isn't a pronounced contrast. You can see it in some of my bud photos. You can also get splashes of pink on the base of the reverse.

I noticed that the illustrations of Hugo Roller in The Garden and the Journal des Roses are obviously copied one from the other. Moon's portrait was published first earlier in the same year. It just goes to show that the artist didn't always have a bunch of fresh flowers in front of them when they were drawn. That's why I wouldn't place too much faith in those small details such as the receptacle shape, as there is always artistic licence at play. Note the upside down prickle on the Moon Dr Grill picture. If we took that too literally we'd never identify Dr Grill!

Also I was reading in the Rosen-Zeitung what essentially amounted to an apology by their artist Lena Schmidt Michel, in which she mentions that people are disappointed when they buy a rose based on the drawing and it turns out looking differently.
Reply #36 of 54 posted 22 MAR 18 by billy teabag
I agree with you that some portraits are deceptive. Apart from the skill of the artist and their commitment to accuracy and the skill of the printer, there are the limitations of the printing processes and materials in play.
It's good that the roses themselves can be the final authority. If we compare roses that have undisputed identities (there are a few that have never lost their names) with the various portraits we come to know which artists are the most accurate and trustworthy.
Some portraits are definitely idealised and some are positively unreliable re detail while others are incredibly accurate.
Alfred Parsons' watercolours show great attention to detail and capture both the natural impression and the finer detail, though the colour reproduction failed them during the printing process.
Accuracy in images was clearly important in many horticultural publications. The first time Moon's portrait of Mme de Watteville was published in The Garden in 1888, the colour reproduction was considered unsatisfactory, so it was republished later that year with notes about this accompanying the plates. (see 'Mme de Watteville' photos and captions on HMF for the details.)
Other examples spring to mind too, where accompanying texts draw readers' attention to inaccuracies in detail, accuracy and labelling
I'm always amazed at the accuracy of the rose portraits in the Wills' cigarette cards. Most of the rose sets are chromolithographs - essentially tiny dot paintings but some are more recognisable than photographs. I read somewhere that accuracy in the cigarette card sets was very important as the eagle eye of the public was always alert to errors and quick to let the cigarette company know in hope of reward.
Reply #31 of 54 posted 21 MAR 18 by billy teabag
"Not Comtesse Riza du Parc" has a base fragrance that is like dried vegetation. Sometimes there are additional notes that vary in intensity and character. Sometimes the dried grass smell has faint floral, fruity or aromatic notes - varying with conditions, time of day etc.
Reply #32 of 54 posted 21 MAR 18 by Jay-Jay
Dried grass smell is called cumarine.
Galium odoratum or the sweetscented bedstraw or sweet woodruff has this scent when contused.
And as we are providing recipes: Very nice in fruit-bowls(fruit-cup) or white wine(German tradition. They call this herb Waldmeister: Master of the woods)
Reply #34 of 54 posted 22 MAR 18 by billy teabag
Thank you Jay Jay. It would be wonderful to have a trained and educated nose to help with those many maddening 'What IS that familiar smell? moments in the rose garden.
Reply #35 of 54 posted 22 MAR 18 by Jay-Jay
A good nose is indeed often a bless, but can be a handicap when one is too sensitive as for the nowadays washing detergent- and softener-smells.(I won't call those scented, for me those smells are brutal, invasive and irritate eyes, nose and mind)
...And a handicap (or no go) when wanting to visit people that "odorated" themselves and/or their homes/bathrooms.
Reply #37 of 54 posted 14 APR 18 by HubertG
I wanted to post this photo that I took today (14/4/18) of my 'Dr. Grill' which shows a group of three hips. New shoots have come out from the base of the hip stalks, and the hips still hold on. These are probably from flowers from late January. I've done a few intentional crosses since then, and only two hips didn't take, so it does seem to set hips quite readily.
Reply #38 of 54 posted 30 SEP 18 by HubertG
Having discovered a new photo of some 'Dr. Grill' blooms, I'm even more inclined to think that my "Dr. Grill" from Honeysuckle Nursery is the real thing. I've managed to procure a bush of William R. Smith that was sold as a Dr. Grill, and although its buds haven't opened yet, I can already tell from the leaves, growth, buds etc that it isn't the same as the rose I grow as 'Dr. Grill'. I can definitely recognise my Dr. Grill in this old photo. Compare the lower bloom in the old photo to Photo Id: 313127
Reply #39 of 54 posted 30 SEP 18 by Margaret Furness
It's exciting to think that the real deal may till be in Aus. I look forward to trying it some time! Ideally early Dec. please.
Reply #40 of 54 posted 30 SEP 18 by HubertG
By all means. I took cuttings in sand this winter. Some are shooting but I don't want to disturb them yet. I'll definitely put you on the reservation list lol. I'm keen to spread it around.
Reply #41 of 54 posted 30 SEP 18 by HubertG
Also, the photo of the Dr. Grill in the Royal Botanic Gardens in Sydney shows a magnificent, large specimen. I keep hacking mine back because it's in a cramped space, but I'm going to try and grow a new specimen and allow it to spread naturally.
Reply #42 of 54 posted 1 OCT 18 by Margaret Furness
Friends who grow cuttings in the ground say to leave them for a year: I gave up in-ground cuttings due to the effort of digging them out. Amazing what Veilchenblau can do in a year. Not sure whether yours are in-ground or in pots, but either way, I'm sure you're right not to disturb them.
I was thinking more of scrounging a cutting or two and a budstick, to try an each-way bet, if your bush can spare enough. There may be things on my plant list you'd like material from, in exchange.
Reply #43 of 54 posted 1 OCT 18 by HubertG
Yes Margaret, I'd be happy to send you cutting and budwood material in early December. My cuttings in sand were in pots; I just found that if I used cutting or seed mix too many rotted off. I haven't had a history of great success with cuttings in general anyway, so I'm only too happy if you can propagate this plant for yourself and eventually others.
Reply #44 of 54 posted 1 OCT 18 by Margaret Furness
Thank you. It's important to spread the rarities around.
Reply #45 of 54 posted 1 OCT 18 by billy teabag
Is there any way you can discover the provenance of your Dr Grill HubertG?
I would very much like to grow this at some time in the future.
Reply #48 of 54 posted 1 OCT 18 by HubertG
I simply bought it as 'Dr. Grill' at Honeysuckle Cottage Nursery back in 2002. I have no idea from where they obtained it. I'm pretty sure they've closed down now. I did mention earlier that I suspected they could have obtained it from a close-by nursery which sold some other rarities such as Korovo and Columbia but that was pure speculation on my part. That nursery was Gretchen Wheen's nursery (I found some old tags of roses I bought there) but I don't know if they sold a 'Dr. Grill' at all.

I guess that there is always the possibility that this rose was in fact the correct 'Dr. Grill' imported from Sangerhausen into Australia, and having been perhaps incorrectly identified as 'W. R. Smith' it has become totally confused and substituted with that rose in nurseries here over time. However, again this is speculation. From the Australian references it appears to be long-lived, and from what I've read in European references it seems relatively cold hardy, so perhaps it did survive in Germany and wasn't mislabelled after all.

Billy, I'm happy to send you struck plants when I have some.
Reply #52 of 54 posted 1 OCT 18 by Margaret Furness
Gretchen Wheen was the lady who introduced AI of bees to Australia (the mind boggles). She certainly had some rare roses. Bruce of Glenorie nursery tried to salvage some for HRIAI a few years ago, but the garden had been let go during her last illness, and it was impossible to identify many of the plants. He did save an Aus poly, E N Ward, 1919, which is now at Werribee.
Reply #54 of 54 posted 3 OCT 18 by HubertG
I guess that's even more encouraging that it might be the correct rose.
Reply #55 of 54 posted 3 OCT 18 by Patricia Routley
The rose would have been passed from one nursery to the other. Look at the post codes.
Honeysuckle at Bowen Mountain 2753
Gretchen Wheen, Richmond, near the Hawkesbury River 2753

It is of interest to look at the Honeysuckle refs for ‘Dr. Grill’. She listed it in 1992, 1995, 1998 (Tea Roses came out in 2008) and she did not list it in 2010.
Reply #46 of 54 posted 1 OCT 18 by billy teabag
I couldn't agree more J-J!
Olfactory assault and confusion in every room of the house and 'unscented' products fetching a premium price. A mad, mad world.
Reply #47 of 54 posted 1 OCT 18 by Andrew from Dolton
Woodruff and lady's bedstraw along with meadow sweet (Filipendula ulmaria) are also very good strewing herbs. In past times people would put them on their floors and the smell would be agreeable and the herbs would also help deter pests like fleas and moth.
There is a shop you will find in most large towns called Lush that sells scented candles and soaps and other smelly stuff. I can detect the odour oozing out from it from several shops away and I instantly start a headache and a feeling of sickness, if I actually went into the shop I would be really ill.
Reply #49 of 54 posted 1 OCT 18 by Jay-Jay
"High Five"!
Reply #50 of 54 posted 1 OCT 18 by Margaret Furness
Finally found it! The recent posts follow 31-35.
Reply #51 of 54 posted 1 OCT 18 by HubertG
Jay-Jay, is that a high five for Andrew from Dolton having a sensitive nose, or a high five for possibly finding the correct Dr.Grill? lol.
Reply #53 of 54 posted 1 OCT 18 by Jay-Jay
High five to You, for finding the real-one... and I meant shake hands with Andrew as a companion "sniffer"!
Discussion id : 110-634
most recent 17 JUL 18 SHOW ALL
Initial post 10 MAY 18 by HubertG
From Trumbull & Beebe's Catalogue of Trees and Plants, 1902, page 84

"Docteur Grill - Large; clear buff pink, changing to rose and fawn; elegantly suffused with pale yellow. A very free bloomer and most exquisite rose."
Reply #1 of 7 posted 10 MAY 18 by Patricia Routley
Thank you. Reference added.
Reply #2 of 7 posted 23 MAY 18 by HubertG
From The Conard & Jones Company "New Floral Guide - Spring, 1904", page 34:

"DR. GRILL - Extra large full flowers, rich rosy pink, passing to salmon and fawn tinted carmine and richly perfumed, an excellent rose in every way."
Reply #3 of 7 posted 23 MAY 18 by Patricia Routley
ThAnk you HubertG. Reference added.
Reply #4 of 7 posted 25 MAY 18 by HubertG
This is the earliest reference I could find in the American catalogues.
From Robert Scott & Son, Penrose Nurseries, Philadelphia 1889 catalogue, page 14:

"Doctor Grill. Large, handsome, clear buff flower, passing to fawn; delicately shaded with pale yellow; richly scented and a distinct variety. 25 cts each."

Many of these references for Dr Grill emphasise the fawn pink and others the yellow. It seems like a bit of a chameleon.

From "The Book of Gardening" by William D. Drury, 1900, p103

"Dr. Grill, rose, shaded with bronze; a splendid variety for bedding."

From "A Book About Roses" by S. Reynolds Hole, 1896, p294

"Dr. Grill. Rose, with coppery shading. Distinct and free-flowering."

From "Roses for English Gardens" by Gertrude Jekyll and Edward Mawley, 1902, p155

"Dr. Grill (T.) - Pale rosy fawn; moderately vigorous. A distinct and free-flowering garden Rose (A.)"

[A = autumnal.]
Reply #5 of 7 posted 25 MAY 18 by Patricia Routley
References added. Thanks.
Reply #6 of 7 posted 17 JUL 18 by HubertG
From Rosen-Zeitung 1886, page 105:

"Neue Rosen für das Jahr 1887.

Docteur Grill. Strauch stark; Blume gross, gefüllt, vollkommene Form, Centrum beim Aufblühen kupferfarbig, mit Auroraschimmer in leuchtend Rosa übergehend, Rückseite der Petalen chinesich-rosa tuschirt; ganz neue Färbung."

My translation:

New Roses for the Year 1887.

Docteur Grill. Strong bush; Flower large, full, perfect form, centre copper-coloured upon opening up, with a dawn pink cast blending into bright pink, reverse of the petals stained China pink; entirely new colouring.
Reply #7 of 7 posted 17 JUL 18 by Patricia Routley
Thanks HubertG. Reference added.
Discussion id : 109-259
most recent 7 MAY 18 SHOW ALL
Initial post 13 MAR 18
* This post deleted by user *
Reply #1 of 18 posted 13 MAR 18 by Patricia Routley
Thank you. Reference added.
Reply #2 of 18 posted 14 MAR 18 by HubertG
Perhaps I should have also added that this description is the accompanying text to the colour lithogroaph of Dr Grill posted here in photo ID 115362 by jedmar in April 09.
Reply #3 of 18 posted 25 APR 18 by HubertG
From the book "Eversley Gardens and Others" by Rose G. Kingsley, published by George Allen, London 1907, page 136:

"I have, however, kept two of my greatest favourites till the last. They are certainly among the very best for bedding; and one, the delightful Dr. Grill, is not as universally cultivated as it should be. Perfect in shape, prolific in flowers of a delicious mixture of pale copper shaded with tender pink and China-rose, it is deliciously fragrant and lasts well in water."
Reply #4 of 18 posted 26 APR 18 by Patricia Routley
Thank you HubertG. Reference added. I hope you are getting the copper message.
Reply #5 of 18 posted 26 APR 18 by HubertG
You're welcome. I would definitely call this pale copper.
Reply #6 of 18 posted 26 APR 18 by Patricia Routley
I wouldn't. I would call it "Comtesse Riza du Parc (in commerce as, in Australia)".
Reply #7 of 18 posted 26 APR 18 by Margaret Furness
Which has been suspected of being Dr Grill.
Reply #9 of 18 posted 26 APR 18 by HubertG
Also the Australian CRdP seems to throw out blooms in small clusters. Mine really is solitary and only on thick new shoots would you get as many as three flowers, but they bloom successively, not at once. See the photo above.
Reply #8 of 18 posted 26 APR 18 by HubertG
No, my Dr Grill definitely isn't that. "Not CRdP" has different receptacles, stems are red, flowers different.
Do you really think that it should be given it's own study name and listing?
It was purchased as Dr Grill, it would be a pity to 'de-identify' it if it is the real Dr Grill.
Reply #10 of 18 posted 26 APR 18 by Patricia Routley
Yes, I really do. It would keep the original rose file clear, while the search goes on. But so that your rose is not entirely lost, what about a "study name" of "Dr. Grill - ex Honeysuckle Nursery, Australia"?
Reply #11 of 18 posted 26 APR 18 by HubertG
That sounds like a good idea, as long as it is referenced in the original Dr Grill listing, so anyone looking up Dr Grill can still check it out. I'm not convinced it's wrong.

Edit: But then again, the Dr Grill roses shown here from Loubert, Jensen, Vintage Gardens and Bielski can't all be correct either, so I'm in two minds as to why mine should be segregated.
Reply #12 of 18 posted 26 APR 18 by Patricia Routley
Done. We now have two files:
'Docteur Grill' 1884
"Dr. Grill - ex Honeysuckle Nursery, Australia".

Would you please check the new foundling file.
Unfortunately I am unable to transfer the relevant comments into the new file so they will have to stay where they are. There are also the two photos above in this comment that need to be transferred, or left where they are.
Reply #13 of 18 posted 26 APR 18 by HubertG
Thanks. When I search for Dr Grill only the old Dr Grill file comes up.

Edit: I have found it now but I had to search for contains 'honeysuckle' . No one will ever see it if it doesn't come up as an option searching for Dr Grill. When I search for 'Comtesse Riza du Parc' three options for this rose show up. Why wouldn't the new category for my Dr Grill come up when I search for Dr Grill?

The flower stems aren't red by the way. They are green. My comment a few posts above was referring to the flower stems of the Australian CRdParc.
Reply #14 of 18 posted 26 APR 18 by Patricia Routley
Yes, there seems to be a problem. Both roses should come up in a search for Dr. Grill.
Admin, can you take a look please. We have
"Dr. Grill - ex Honeysuckle Nursery, Australia" - plant i.d. 81418
'Dr.Grill' - plant i.d. 1548.
Reply #15 of 18 posted 6 MAY 18 by HubertG
Here's an interesting comment about Dr Grill as a seed parent. From Rosen-Zeitung 1901, page 9, under the heading:
"Allerlei Erfahrungen bei Rosenbefruchtungen.

Auch Dr. Grill ist unter die guten Mutterrosen zu zählen, deren Sämlinge im Wuchs und Laub meist die Mutterrose ausstechen. Wer kennt nicht die schöne Antoine Rivoire?"

All Sorts of Experiences with Rose Fertilisations.

Also Dr. Grill is to be counted among the good seed parents, whose seedlings, in growth and foliage, usually replicate the mother rose. Who does not know the beautiful Antoine Rivoire?
Reply #16 of 18 posted 6 MAY 18 by Patricia Routley
Thanks HubertG. Reference added.
Yes, it is most interesting. At the time of writing (1901) there were three seed children from 'Dr. Grill: 'Mme. Abel Chatenay' 1894, Antoine Rivoire 1895, and Mrs. William Howard Taft 1895. There were another seven seed-bred roses after that date.

Your roses are not listed on HelpMeFind at the moment. Do you have 'Mme. Abel Chatenay'? Mine was a foundling ("Bob Williams Old Mud Hut") and I am reasonably confident that it is correctly identified, because of its hips. Unfortunately 'Antoine Rivoire' never came my way so I am unable to compare these last two, but I can't see much similarity between these last two blooms on paper/screen.
Reply #17 of 18 posted 7 MAY 18 by HubertG
I never grew Mme Abel Chatenay but did grow Antoine Rivoire (from Golden Vale?) briefly before I grew my Dr Grill. I didn't keep it because I was limited for space and to be honest I can't really remember too much about the growth and foliage. The flowers were a creamy flesh colour mostly. What has puzzled me a bit about Mme Abel Chatenay is that it was such a popular rose everywhere that you would think it would be something that never dropped out of circulation, but it seems to have done that.
There are plenty of old photos of MmeAC that should be helpful to identify it correctly. I looked for your Mud Hut rose and couldn't find any photos or a listing.

I hope my translation of the German passage above hasn't given a wrong impression. 'Ausstechen' which I've translated as 'replicate', literally means 'cut out' or 'pierce out' but it can also mean to outdo or compete with (we need Jay-Jay's help here lol). In any case, the sense is that Dr Grill usually bequeaths its vigour and foliage type to its offspring when it is a seed parent.
Reply #18 of 18 posted 7 MAY 18 by Patricia Routley
Photos added to 'Mme. Abel Chatenay'.
Reply #19 of 18 posted 7 MAY 18 by HubertG
Thanks. Form is very similar to the Catherine Klein watercolour just above it.
Discussion id : 109-864
most recent 15 APR 18 SHOW ALL
Initial post 8 APR 18 by HubertG
From the Dingee & Conard Co "The New Guide to Rose Culture" 1890, page 6:

"Docteur Grill. - Extra-large handsome flowers, clear buff pink, passing to rose and fawn, elegantly suffused with pale canary yellow, richly scented and very beautiful."
Reply #1 of 10 posted 8 APR 18 by Patricia Routley
Thank you. Reference added.
Reply #2 of 10 posted 15 APR 18 by HubertG

This delightful Tea Rose was hardly known in England till it was brought forward and its merits were pointed out by Mr. Robinson. It has a charming and quite remarkably refined quality of growth and foliage, and the rosy bloom shaded with copper gives the same impression of distinction with daintiness. Hence it is one of the prettiest of Roses for a bed by itself. The undergrowth of pale tufted Pansies fills the under space, and when rightly assorted for colour enhances the beauty of the Rose."

From "The Garden", Feb 8 1902, page 94, accompanying the photo of a bed of Dr. Grill by Miss Willmott.
Reply #3 of 10 posted 15 APR 18 by Andrew from Dolton
There was a plant in the East Garden, not from Robinson's time, when I was head gardener at Gravetye Manor.
Reply #4 of 10 posted 15 APR 18 by HubertG
Andrew, you didn't happen to get any photos of it? This rose is so confusing the more you look at online photos of it.
Reply #5 of 10 posted 15 APR 18 by Andrew from Dolton
I wasn't so interested in roses then as I am now, to me back then it was just a rose. I had just got a video camera at the time and had abandoned still photography for the medium of film, but I'll go and look. In a couple of months time I will be going to Mottisfont and I will take some pictures of it there.
Reply #6 of 10 posted 15 APR 18 by HubertG
Yes, please take some photos when you visit.
The date on the Moon illustration of Dr. Grill has a mid January date on it, and the text says that they were collected from bushes planted out in the open in the previous November. I'm not sure if the date on the picture is simply the date of the publication or perhaps the date that the rose was painted, but in either case they must have been flowers collected in December or January. So maybe this rose can do well in an English winter (for a tea) and has survived there. Who knows?
Reply #7 of 10 posted 15 APR 18 by HubertG
I forgot to add that that's very impressive having been head gardener at Gravetye.
The 1902 photo of the bed of Dr. Grill (with tufted pansies) was possibly at Robinson's residence, as he was a proponent of this rose. I keep on zooming in on the individual blooms in that photo (lol) even though the resolution isn't superb to see what similarities I can make out with my rose, and I have to admit it tends to support my rose rather than contradict it.
Reply #8 of 10 posted 15 APR 18 by Andrew from Dolton
Plants could be protected by being grown on a south facing wall to encourage longer flowering. There were also a range of glass houses where roses like 'Dr Grill' could have been used for cut flower. Don't believe everything you read about Robinson's "naturalistic" way of gardening, he was a lot more formal in reality. After Robinson's death the garden went through a period of neglect for over twenty years, especially during the war and apart from mature trees very few of the original plantings remained. There were still pictures by Moon in the House when Peter Herbert took on the lease and restored the garden and converted the house into a hotel but they were sold.
Working at Gravetye was an experience but due to lack of money and staffing problems not a really enjoyable one. My previous job working at Charleston Farmhouse, country home of Vanessa Bell and Duncan Grant was far more interesting...
Reply #9 of 10 posted 15 APR 18 by HubertG
Andrew, that's great insight! Thanks.
I was only wondering today of the whereabouts of the original watercolours by Moon. Many are probably in private collections I guess. It would be very interesting to see how the original colours compare to the chromolithographs.
Reply #10 of 10 posted 15 APR 18 by Andrew from Dolton
I'm not in contact with Peter Herbert anymore but you could contact him through Gravetye Manor Hotel, he may not still be alive, he'd be well over 90.
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