HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
DescriptionPhotosLineageAwardsReferencesMember RatingsMember CommentsMember JournalsCuttingsGardensBuy From 
'Spray Cécile Brunner' rose Reviews & Comments
Discussion id : 101-180
most recent 21 JUN 17 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 21 JUN 17 by Patricia Routley
1978 New Zealand Rose Annual
p94. For Hybridisers. Are you short of stock for budding those promising seedlings on to? A tip advocated in The Journal of Agriculture some years ago was to bud on to a cane of Climbing Cecile Brunner. When the bud has taken the cane is cut off and a cutting (or cuttings) is made of the portion containing the budwood. This is then planted in a suitable corner. The bark lifts easily on this cultivar and it roots very easily.
Discussion id : 35-467
most recent 18 JUN 17 SHOW ALL
Initial post 11 APR 09 by Patricia Routley
Continuing the thread from ‘Other’, April 10, 2009
[in passing.... the 1922 reference for the Ardagh sport is most interesting] – Patricia Routley

From the descriptions in the reference section on Ardagh's Cecile Brunner it sounds more like 'Spray Cecile Brunner'. Large shrub,suitable for hedging etc. The early Australian references that I have also describe C.B.Climbing in a similar manner. Is it possible that the Australian version was 'Spray Cecile Brunner'? – Sandie Maclean

Hello Sandie,
That’s what I found most interesting about the 1922 reference too. I think that with this rose, anything is possible. Because the official ‘Spray Cecile Brunner’ didn’t hit the market until 1941, I think the answer has to be that Cecile was genetically unstable to start with. If you have a look at the first generation descendants from it, you will see lots of similar roses (Helpmefind, it would be great to see the sports designated somehow in the descendant listing), One most visible sign of that unstableness is the way it sometimes produces a flower from the middle of an existing flower.

You mentioned elsewhere that you had received four 'Spray Cecile Brunner's when ordering 'Climbing Cecile Brunner'. Do you still have room? Would you like some cuttings of my climber (provenance: the Pinjarra Heritage Rose Garden, bed 2, site 1). I’ve had ‘Cecile Brunner Climbing’ now for 12 years and it flowers weeks before ‘Spray Cecile Brunner’ in spring, but not too much at all after that. Both roses are on opposite sides of the path so the obvious differences in habit between the two plants is quite plain to see.
Reply #1 of 7 posted 11 APR 09 by Sandie Maclean
Even though the official 'Spray Cecile Brunner' didn't turn up until 1941 I am inclined
towards thinking that Ardagh's version was also the 'Spray' version.
As mentioned before-quite a few Australian Nurseries sell the 'Spray' version as the climber.
Interesting what you say about the tendancy to proliferation with 'Spray Cecile Brunner"-I actually used photos of one of the flowers to demonstrate proliferation on
a website.I also used a photo of a flower from the same bush to demonstrate fasciation.
A very obliging rose for showing anomalies. :)
I would love the REAL climbing C.B.-thanks for the offer.
Reply #6 of 7 posted 21 APR 09 by billy teabag
I've just chanced on another Australian reference to "Climbing Cecile Brunner" that definitely sounds like the spray form and not the climber.
It's from a book by Harry Hazlewood's brother, Walter, published in 1968 and reads:
"That gem, Cecile Brunner, seems to be in a class of its own. It is not a Wichuraiana or a Polyantha. There is a dwarf form and a so-called climber. The dwarf grows to 3 or 4 feet high. The climber sends out long shoots, but is not a climber in the ordinary sense of the term. It is mostly grown as a tall bush and the long shoots are tipped back. Sprays of bloom about 2 feet long or more can be had from the climber and it is a great favourite with the florists. A good clean foliage is another thing in its favour."
I've added this ref to the Cecile Brunner and Clg Cecile Brunner (Ardagh) entries.
Reply #2 of 7 posted 11 APR 09 by Cass
Where does Kerschaw fit in with yet another Climbing Cécile Brunner? Nomenclature de tous les noms de roses connus shows Kerschaw, 1904, for Cl. Cécile Brunner. I cannot find Journal des roses 1905 online, but the little I can read in google reports "Kerschaw, horiticulteur à Melbourne."
Reply #3 of 7 posted 12 APR 09 by Patricia Routley
Cass, That spelling of Kerschaw is a little wrong I think.

All I have been able to find on the man and any connection with 'Cl. Cecile Brunner' is as follows:

1933 Australian Rose Annual
p24. Harry H. Hazlewood. Rose Stock Experiments. Climbing Cecil Brunner was used experimentally by the late Mr. G. W. Kershaw and good results were obtained.

1999. Peter Cox Australian Roses
p30. Although mentioned in Modern Roses 8, we have no other details concerning G. W. Kershaw.

2002 Richard Aitken & Michael Looker Oxford Companion to Australian Gardens
p431. The National Rose Society of New South Wales (1913) was founded by .....with commercial growers George Wilkinson Kershaw (1861-1924) and......

Brent C. Dickerson Old Roses: The Master List 2nd ed.
p463 ‘Mrs. G. W. Kershaw’ (dark rose pink. HT. A. Dickson, 1906.

Reply #4 of 7 posted 12 APR 09 by Cass
Thanks, Patricia. Brent Dickerson also mentions Kershaw in connection with Cl. Cécile Brunner. What I'm looking for is a link between Kershaw and Ardagh, one perhaps the discoverer, the other the introducer.
Reply #5 of 7 posted 12 APR 09 by Patricia Routley
Brent has also picked up that mis-spelling of Kerschaw (Old Roses: The Master List 2nd ed. p131.
The only link to date is that they both lived in Australia and were rosarians.
Ardagh lived in Victoria and Kershaw in New South Wales.
Ardagh had his own nursery so it seems unlikely he would have given 'Cl. Cecile Brunner' to Kershaw to introduce.
Reply #7 of 7 posted 18 JUN 17 by Patricia Routley
Yet another clear description (and an earlier date) that indicates that Richard Ardagh's plant was what we now know as 'Spray Cecile Brunner':

1915 W E. Lippiatt’s General catalogue.
p27. Climbing Cecil Brunner (R. Ardah, 1902). A sport of extraordinary vigour, carrying the flowers sometimes 18in. to 20in. above the foliage; blossoms are produced both singly and in large trusses, but no larger in flower than the dwarf. Lasts in flower a long time (Climbing Fairy.) Not exactly a true climber, but makes a very large bush.
Discussion id : 69-968
most recent 8 FEB 13 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 8 FEB 13 by monica.cavina
Available from - vivaverde Az.Agr. Cavina Monica
Discussion id : 50-526
most recent 17 JUN 11 SHOW ALL
Initial post 11 DEC 10 by Rupert, Kim L.
The comment on the opening page about this rose having a "pepper fragrance" is the impression of the person who posted it. The scent most people I have discussed it with and to my nose, is identical to Mlle. Cecile Brunner. If you are questioning whether or not you want to grow the Spray mutation and basing it on fragrance, grab it! The scents are the same.
Reply #1 of 2 posted 17 JUN 11 by MelissaPej
I agree about the desirable fragrance. To my nose it's a sweet China scent with a touch of pepper, and I can smell it some feet away from the plant. This is a lovely rose in every way. It gets bigger than the six feet mentioned in the description; my largest plant is perhaps 7'x7', but I'll bet there are bigger ones than mine around. One thing I think worth mentioning is that it strikes me as a rose that doesn't take kindly to pruning, except in the case of damaged or old canes (or if the entire plant has been totally flattened by snow, and then it needs a couple of years to grow new canes); it seems best just to let it become the big vase shaped plant it wants to be.
Reply #2 of 2 posted 17 JUN 11 by Rupert, Kim L.
Agreed Melissa. The rose is half Tea and that class, as well as those which are closely related, depend upon that thick, old wood for their performance. Your advice about pruning is right one. Thanks! Kim
© 2021