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'Madame Jules Thibaud' rose Reviews & Comments
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The 1962, page 112 reference, just added, is of interest.
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Hmm. It says "an unknown "buttonhole rose" of the 'Cecile Brunner' type - a perfect miniature Tea Rose on a tallish bush, but shading from delicate apricot to cream".
My Mme. Jules is basically a rich pink. It doesn't seem to do apricot at all, and it definitely doesn't do cream. That description sounds more like Ravensworth or Perle, although Ravensworth is often more buttery (mine is doing apricotish at the moment). I suppose it could have been another stray Perle sport, unique to the area.
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I probably added that ref because Deane Ross in 1963 had called Mme Jules Thibaud “peach”. I still think the reference may be of interest as we are no further down the track with Mme Jules Whatshername’ other than the first mention of it was in 1949.
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I notice that the 1949 reference gives two different spellings of the surname, and it's sold here under a third spelling.
From a quick search online, Thibaut appears to be a Christian name (ie: Thibaut Courtois is a Belgian soccer player) while Thibault is a surname (you can find quite a few present-day Jules Thibault's floating around the place). But then Thibaud is a surname too, so perhaps the 1949 reference meant to use that spelling but got it wrong. It is fiendishly continental after all, and you know what the English are like when it comes to that sort of thing.
Had a thought, if anyone is up for the quest: since it was presumably spotted at Long Barns initially, has anyone done digging into Sackville-West's clients and friends, and looked for a Thibault or Thibaud?
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Tybalt in R & J. St Theobalds church in Cumbria. Several Theobald's Lane / Rd / Avenue in London. I would think all of the same origin.
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#5 of 8 posted
31 MAR 19 by
 HubertG
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There's a 'Mme. Thibaut' pelargonium and also a lantana from about the 1880's. There's also a 'Monsieur Thibaut' fuchsia from around that time. From what I can gather Thibaut was some Fench expert on pelargoniums, although I don't know if he was a Jules or not. It wouldn't surprise me if there was an obscure early 'Mme. Thibaut' rose as well. There also is a red tuberous begonia from 1878 called 'Louis Thibaut'. There's even a 'Mme. Thibaut' clematis, besides the Hybrid perpetual listed here. And a German Iris named after her lol. And a petunia, white edged pink, and a phlox.
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Righty-o then. The 1889 reference for that HP says " a very pretty variety dedicated to the wife of our very cordial colleague Mr. Thibaut of the firm Thibaut and Ketleer."
So there was a firm in the late 19th century called "maison Thibaud et Ketleer", and the bloke in question was regarded as a colleague of rose nutters. Somebody in France is going to know about this firm. Lévêque et fils were based in Paris, as was Journal des Roses, so it stands to reason said firm might have been too.
If this particular M. Thibaud wasn't named Jules, he may have had a son who was. Seems like the best lead going at this stage.
PS: It is rather weird that this rose is so obscure in the records, since IMO it is one of the best of its type. I would have expected it to have gained a bit more notice.
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Any leads are most welcome!
I will repeat one of my previous postings and add in the HP
1875. Perle d'Or
1880. Mlle Cecile Brunner
1889. Mme Thibaud (PAEONY)
1889 Mme. Thibaut (HP) Louis Leveque.
1894. Mlle. Cecile Brunner Cl.
1909. While Cecile Brunner
1949. First mention of Mme. Jules Thibau....whatever. I understand Thibaut /Thibault /Thibaud was a fairly common French surname.
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#8 of 8 posted
1 APR 19 by
HubertG
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Thibaut and Ketleer were located at Sceaux, on the edge of Paris. From the 'Revue Horticole' of 1870-71, page 480:
"MM. Thibaut et Ketleer, horticulteurs à Sceaux (Seine)"
They talk here about introducing a new Daphne, so if all the other plants named 'Mme. Thibaud' are named for a lady of this family, the firm must have dealt with a wide range of plants.
Of course it's possible that this firm has nothing to do with 'Mme. Jules Thibaut'. A sport could have arisen in a private garden and have been grown lovingly for years or decades without being introduced into commerce. The surname given to it could simply be a coincidence.
Edited to add: The Roseraie de L'Haÿ is not at all far from Sceaux. Maybe the sport arose at some time in this collection and was given the name of the wife of an historic nurseryman in the area as an historical tribute. This seems plausible to me, yet you would think there would be some record of it if that were the case.
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Just because I like dates:
1875. Perle d'Or
1880. Mlle Cecile Brunner
1889. Mme Thibaud (PAEONY)
1894. Mlle. Cecile Brunner Cl.
1909. While Cecile Brunner
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I'm liking this rose a lot so far. Mine is still quite small, but it's a happy little bush and the flowers are very appealing. It hasn't had any special care. I just gave it a good hole in decent soil and pretty much left it to its own devices.
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It is interesting to consider W. E. Lippiatt's (1863-1941) New Zealand dwarf polyantha rose 'Fairy Gem' 1905 when looking at 'Mme. Jules Thibaud' - especially since the 2000 reference for 'Mme. Jules Thibaud' says: "Many people thought that this rose was lost, but it came to light in Otago, New Zealand some years ago.".
The Otago Peninsula, just east of Dunedin, is 137km south of Timaru where Trevor Griffiths had his nursery. Mr. Griffiths featured 'Mme. Jules Thibaud' in his 1983 book My world of Old Roses, vol 1, p138.
The question arises, did Mr. Griffiths recognise the Otago foundling as a 'Mme. Jules Thibaud' which he had possibly seen overseas. (It was growing at Long Barn Gardens, former home of Vita Sackville-West in 1949). [Later edit. Not quite correct. Refer Reply #10 of 15 below]
Or could he have found an old bush of W. E. Lippiatt's 'Fairy Gem'?
Or he could have imported 'Mme. Jules Thibaud' prior to 1983.
W. E. Lippiatt took advertisements in the Otago Daily Times (May 20, 1905) to announce that his Dunedin agent was Nimmo & Blair - they almost certainly would have been carrying Lippiatt's 1905 'Fairy Gem'.
W. E. Lippiatt (1863-1941) visited Pernet-Ducher (see 'Bouquet d'Or' Notes) but I do not have the date of his visit. [later edit: 1920]
His 1910 rose 'Peerless' was referenced in Lambert's, (Germany) 1914 catalogue; and his 1920 'Avalanche' was referenced in Bobbink & Atkins (America) 1929 catalogue. So it is feasible he sent his roses overseas.
i guess it all gets back to - who named the rose 'Mme. Jules Thibaud/ Thibault?
I've been scribbling some parentages:
1875. 'Perle d'Or' (Polyantha alba plena sarmentosa x Mme. Falcot)
1887 'Mme Laurette Messimy' (Rival de Paestum x Mme. Falcot)
1905 'Fairy Gem' (Mlle. Cecile Brunner x 'Mme. Laurette Messimy)
<1949 'Mme Jules Thibaud'
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#1 of 15 posted
31 MAY 17 by
jedmar
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Maybe it is possible to find out more by looking at the persons involved: From the 1949 references it seems that 'Mme Jules Thibaud' was an established rose at Long Barn Gardens in England. Vita Sackvile-West lived there 1915-1931 before moving to Sissinghurst. They then let the estate until selling it after the war to a Paul Soskin. This latter is probably the screen writer (February 23, 1905 Kerch - July 15, 1975 Westminster), who was succcesful with movies from 1941 onwards.
I am now premusing that the tenants and Paul Soskin were not the planters of 'Mme Jules Thibaud', which would point to the period 1925-1931 when Vita Sackville-West was most active in Long Barn.
The rose was then either purchased or originated as a sport or seedling on the estate. If so, there must have been a real Monsieur Jules Thibaud who was known to Sackville-West. The latter option would also explain why we cannot find any early cataogs mentioning this rose, as it might not have been commercialized until after WW II.
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I just flicked through various book by/and on V Sackville-West and there is no mention of a M. Thibaud.
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I did that too a few years back and found nothing. Perhaps I'll pick up a book or two again seeking 'Fairy Gem'. I have no old English nursery catalogues.
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Are you able to access the entire articles in those 1949 Gardener's Chronicle references Jedmar? I can only see the 'snippet view'.
Re-reading the snippets, I think they are describing Long Barn Gardens' exhibit at a show or exhibition rather than a part of the garden at Long Barn.
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#5 of 15 posted
9 JUN 17 by
jedmar
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You are right. I do not have access to more than the snippet. However, outwitting Google, the texts continue as follows:
p. 49: "Mr. C. A. Jardine showed alpine Violas in vases set against a background of August 6, 1949."
p. 231: "An admirable collection of the lovely Kalmia latifolia occupied a considerable portion of the exhibit of Mr. F. Street. In association with these were planted Rhododendron Lady A. de Trafford, a very fine white, and the lovely red Rhododendron...."
It therefore seems that the mention is only the one sentence we already have.
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Some of the plants at Long Barn were cuttings and seeds from Turkey and Persia (diplomatic posts of Harold Nicolson), I will try and find a proper reference for this.
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#7 of 15 posted
9 JUN 17 by
jedmar
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I have now used the Hathi Trust search engine to look for Jules Thibaud or Thibaut or Thibault in the "Gardeners Chronicle 1915-1969, vol. 57-166 (missing vol. 91, 93, 95, 97-100, 104, 113-114, 117-120). The only mention of these words are in 1949 pages 49 and 231. I will check other British publications from 1949, to see if there is a Report of the same exhibition.
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#8 of 15 posted
9 JUN 17 by
jedmar
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No luck in other 1949 magazines for 'Mme Jules Thibaud/Thibaut/Thibault'. I found a 1951 publication "Record Guide" by Edward Sackville-West (1901-1965), Cousin of Vita, where he refers several times to records of the contemporary French violonist Jacques Thibaud (1880-1953). It is documented that he had concerts in London. Jacques Thibaud was married with Anne Marguerite Francfort (b. 1877). A rose 'Mme Jacques Thibaud'? Did the Chronicle reporter mix up the names?
Addition: A tulip 'Jacques Thibaud'; commercialized 1942 by van Tubergen Ltd.: Barium-yellow, base golden-yellow with vermilion-red blotches; exterior red, edged yellow. Leaves mottled. This tulip is included in "A Classified List of Tulip Names" by the RHS (1948). So, a naming of flowers for this famous violonist is not impossible.
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Re my initial comment, para 4. W. E. Lippiatt visited Pernet Ducher in 1920. If he was influenced by his French visit to name one of his roses 'Bouquet d'Or', it might also be feasible that he renamed his 1908 'Fairy Gem' to 'Mme. Jules Thibaut / Thibault / Thibaud for the European market.
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Long Barn Gardens may not be the Long Barn garden of Vita Sackville-West fame.
It is perhaps a nursery specialising in miniature garden plants.
Long Barn Gardens, Mulberry Green, Harlow, Essex comes up in
searches.
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#11 of 15 posted
10 JUN 17 by
jedmar
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Well, Billy, that really kills this line of thought! Who would have thought? A Long Barn Cottage still seems to exist in Harlow, near the Mulberry Green road. It is declared as a Grade II historic building, a barn or granary in earlier times, available for £ 440k plus! It seems we are dealing with a small nursery which offered miniature gardens in pots and pans, including miniature roses. That makes 'Mme Jules Thibaud' even more mysterious.
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Pat Toolan has pointed out to me a March 4, 1876 article in The Australasian newspaper entitled The Summer Display at Brunnings. It contained a reference to a bedding geranium called Madame Thibaud. So perhaps the spelling of the rose might well be Thibaud. I did an internet search some weeks back and that name came up a lot in Canada. I suspected at the time that it might well be a fairly common French name.
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Jedmar, do you know if the Roseraie Jean Dupont keeps the provenance of their roses? To me, their 'Georges Elger' is looking very much like 'Mme. Jules Thibaud'.
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#14 of 15 posted
12 JUN 17 by
jedmar
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I do not know, but I can try to find out. I suspect it is L'Haÿ.
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I suspect copyright is getting in the way of access to more references to 'Mme Jules Thibaut/lt/d'.
The 70 or 75 year copyright rules mean publications since 1942 (or 1947) are unlikely to be accessible online at the moment but hopefully there will be more to discover over the next few years.
I'll keep eyes open for any additional refs to 'Fairy Gem' Patricia. It would be good to have more detailed descriptions and some images.
'Mme Jules Thibaud' is such a good rose (in our climate, at least) - it is hard to believe it would not have been mentioned often in hort. literature.
Any thoughts of where we might find more mention of the Essex Long Barn Gardens? Whose enterprise this was? Whether they had a connection to people by the name of Thibaut/ Thibault?
If they were featuring 'Mme Jules Thibaut/lt' in a horticultural display in 1949, perhaps it was a newish rose at that time.
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