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"Flamingo Gardens Tea" rose Reviews & Comments
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For those of you who grow them both, please compare "Flamingo Gardens Tea" with 'Souv. de Pierre Notting'. I think we may have a match. We need to run the DNA analysis on them, but in the garden, they certainly look alike.
Malcolm
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A close look at the receptacle might help, Malcolm. The main page says "receptacle long and slender". The Australian book 'Tea Roses: Old Roses for Warm Gardens" page 184 says the receptacle for 'Souvenir de Pierre Notting' is "Small, flared cup, some glands at base"
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The Flamingo Gardens Tea I have doesn't match the description on the Souvenir de Pierre Notting on this site. For one thing the petals are quite substantial and has no problem with balling in wet weather at all, and we get a lot of rain here. Also, there are not as many petals as in some of the pictures of Souv. de Pierre on this site. The receptacle shape of the Souvenir de Pierre Notting in "Tea Roses, Old Roses for Warm Gardens" is definitely" not the same as mine. It is much shorter and squatter. Unfortunately, the buds are too small right now so I can't show you a picture of it. The descriptions and pictures from Rogue Valley Roses, where my plant came from, are different for the two roses. They say that Pierre is aka Yellow Maman Cochet. implying that there is some resemblance to Mama Cochet.. My Flamingo does not in any way resemble my Mama Cochet. Malcolm, you said that Rogue Valley's Flamingo came from you so I am assuming that my plant is correct.
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#3 of 19 posted
21 MAR 15 by
mmanners
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I compared our plants again today. They appear to be identical in every respect (leaves, prickles, buds, calyx shape, sepals, the flower itself). I can't prove our 'Souv. de Pierre Notting' is the true original, but it is the one commonly in commerce in the U.S.
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.....Receptacle....is much shorter and squatter.
Have a look at 'Etoile de Lyon' receptacle on p99 of the 'Tea Roses' book.
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#5 of 19 posted
22 MAR 15 by
mmanners
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The receptacle on my two plants is absolutely identical. I have to wonder who described it as long and slender -- they are, indeed, short and squat. And we have the original source plants of FGT.
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Identical to what? Each other? The p99 photo of 'Etoile de Lyon' or p184 'Souvenir de Pierre Notting'?
As you have the original source plants of "Flamingo Gardens tea", we have altered the main page to read Receptacle: short and squat.
Good side-on photos of pedicel and buds are needed. No more full-frontal, full-bloom gorgeous photos showing only colour (which can change). Foundlings need ugly but clear photos showing the rose's character - canes, prickles, leaves, the bush, and side-on photos of buds!!
I note from the 2011-114 reference for 'Souvenir de Pierre Notting' that the San Jose Heritage Rose Garden bush of 'SdPN' was the same as that pictured on p184 of 'Tea Roses'.
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#7 of 19 posted
23 MAR 15 by
mmanners
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Patricia, Identical to each other in the garden (our FGT and the SdPN sold and grown in the US).
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Malcolm, mine is the plant that has the long slender receptacle. Since you have the original plant, clearly my is not Flamingo Gardens tea. Except for the flowers, it does not resemble Souvenir De Pierre Notting. The flowers have great substance and has no trouble with balling at all unlike the description of Pierre Notting and Catherine Mermet and Mama Cochet. It is also more disease resistant than either of those two, even my unforgiving rain forest climate. The buds are slimmer than some of the Souvenir de Pierre Notting pictures shown here. I have more "beauty shots" of my rose but of course they won't help identify it. It is a shame since it is one of the jewels of the garden, as a plant second only to General Schablikine. Probably more suitable than here than the real Flamingo. I guess it is just another one of those great mystery roses. I will remove my pictures here to avoid confusion, but I wish I had a place to put them.
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#9 of 19 posted
23 MAR 15 by
mmanners
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That's really odd, in that your front-on flowers look exactly right for it. I wonder if its receptacle/calyx shape varies with climate conditions?
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It is odd isn't it? I'll keep my pictures up until I can get one of the latest batch of flowers to show the receptacle. You can sort of see the receptacle in my picture of the sprawling young plant. The flower to the right of the white tag (declaring it is Flamingo Gardens Tea) you can just see the stem end of the receptacle showing. The fact that you can see it that far back of the flower speaks to how long it is. The shape is similar to that of the Hume's Blush Scented China directly behind it. Whatever the case, it is such a good rose, I hope it can be identified and everyone in a warm climate gets a chance to grow it, whatever it's name. One thing you can clear up for me, are the petals of Flamingo/Pierre Notting substantial like Mrs. B R Cant/General Schablikine or thin and subject to balling like Maman Cochet/Rosette Delizy/Catherine Mermet? The description of Pierre Notting in this site suggest the latter while mine is the former.
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Celeryrose – one of the very good identification clues you have, is that your rose came from Rogue Valley Roses. If you do an Advanced Search for yellow tea roses, you come up with a list. Quickly scanning down and searching for the N for nurseries, you can open up each possibility to see if Rogue Valley carries that rose.
Hopefully their listing is updated regularly – and on that surmise I’ve come up with five possibilities:
‘Alliance Franco Russe’ – discounted because the petals point out and it balls.
‘Marie van Houtte’ – discounted because it often has a pink edge.
‘Alexander Hill Gray’ – discounted because it has 60-80 petals
‘Safrano’- Jedmar’s photo of William Paul’s 1848 photo show a long pedicel (such as your rose has) and the receptacle is clearly shown. Marcir’s photo also has a clearly shown bud. However I am inclined to discount ‘Safano’ because of Billy’s photo shows a receptacle which seems too long and rounded.
That leaves ‘Etoile de Lyon’ and I believe you should really look at this possibility.
This is compounded by member Peachiekean (see Etoile de Lyon comments) who also bought a ‘mystery’ rose from Rogue Valley and she has wondered if hers could be ‘Etoile de Lyon’.
I am really hesitating about marking your photos ‘Photo error’ not as I have never found a way of reversing it. Perhaps if you agree you could move your photos out of “Flamingo Gardens Tea” and into ‘Etoile de Lyon’ noting that they are “possibly Etoile de Lyon”.
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Thanks for doing the research. I am very familiar with the tea and china list of Rogue Valley. Since my rose is so obviously a tea. that is where I concentrated my search. Alliance Franco Russe may be the same as "fake perle" in the Australian book and doesn't resemble my Flamingo. Perle itself is reputed to be a horrible baller which my Flamingo is not.. I have Marie Van Houtte. Definitely not her. Probably not Mrs. Dudley Cross either since that is suppose to look like Marie Van Houtte. Not Safrano, too many petals, too short. Also Rogue Valley has only just started to carry Safrano, long after I bought my Flamingo. Etoile de Lyion has a squat receptacle, too thorny and doesn't look like it has the bright red coloured new growth. I don't think I will move the picture there Rogue Valley also carries Souvenir de Pierre Notting but I have never seen it in stock. The rose it most resembles is .... Flamingo Gardens tea! Even though it doesn't ball as the description of Souvenir de Pierre Notting says, I think I will leave it here for now. The buds are just forming now for the first flush. I will observe it very closely. Perhaps it is as Malcolm said, very different climate created very different growth.
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OK.
Consider adding your list of roses to HelpMefind. It would have been good to know what you have and what you don't.
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I've spoken to Janet Inada from Rogue Valley, she remembers buying the Flamingo Gardens Tea from Malcolm. Since Malcolm thinks the face on flower looks right I will assume I have the right plant. I have bought more than 70 plants from Janet and have only had two wrong plants, both known issues. My plant is now three years old so maybe it has settled down and will produce normal shaped flowers. She also has Souvenir de Pierre Notting however hers is not the same plant as Flamingo Garden Tea.
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This comment is late to the party, but I understand that 'Souvenir de Pierre Notting' has been confused in commerce by at least one vendor with 'Mademoiselle Franziska Krüger'. This might explain why RVR's 'SdPN' did not look like "Flamingo Gardens Tea"?
Or.... perhaps the 'SdPN' that Malcolm Manners received is actually 'MFK'?
Virginia
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#17 of 19 posted
18 FEB 20 by
 HubertG
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I'm wondering if 'Flamingo Gardens Tea', because of its thornlessness and colour might be the original 'Mme. Charles'.
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#18 of 19 posted
18 FEB 20 by
mmanners
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It appears to be in all ways identical to 'Souv. de Pierre Notting' as commonly grown and sold in the US, AND to match, perfectly, Billy teabag's photos in Western Australia of SDPN. I'm hoping this summer that we can run DNA of the two against 'Maréchal Niel' and 'Maman Cochet' (listed parents of SDPN) and see what we come up with.
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#19 of 19 posted
18 FEB 20 by
HubertG
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That would be exciting. Just curious - when you run a DNA test such as you described, can you keep the results in some sort of database for later comparisons of other roses tested? Or does everything need to be repeated for each test?
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#15 of 19 posted
19 SEP 16 by
mmanners
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Finally, I just now added comparison photos.
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Can anyone provide information about where and when this rose was found and whether there are any clues to its past, its age etc?
Does the parent plant still exist and if so, is it possible to add detailed photos of the parent plant to HMF?
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#1 of 1 posted
22 FEB 15 by
mmanners
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The plant "originated" in the greenhouses of Florida Southern College. In the late 1980s, we were given a collection of roses that had been originally collected in Barbados and imported to Flamingo Gardens, a botanic garden/zoo in the Fort Lauderdale area. This rose was on that bench, but without a tag, so we called it "Flamingo Gardens Tea." When we showed it to the folks from Flamingo Gardens, to get a positive ID, they assured us that it was not one of their roses, and that they had never seen it before. So its origin with us remains a mystery.
In recent years, I've noticed a striking resemblance to 'Souv. de Pierre Notting', and suspect they may be the same rose.
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The entry for Flamingo Garden Tea should have it spelled "Flamingo Gardens Tea" with "gardens" plural. Sorry I never caught this before. I gave the plant its name, back in the 1980s.
Malcolm Manners
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It's December and the cooler weather has changed the blooms color to medium yellow - I posted a picture to illustrate. Flamingo Garden Tea bush is about 4 ft tall at approx. 2 years in the ground. Very healthy, vigorous and red new growth in my no-spray garden. It seems to like my clay soil.
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