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"Grandmother's Hat" rose Reviews & Comments
Discussion id : 78-033
most recent 5 MAY 14 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 5 MAY 14 by twinkletoad (zone 7B)
This is one tough plant. I had a tiny plant with one basal planted in a terrible spot with too much shade. I dug it up and moved it twice, it looked like it would die for a few weeks but I continued to give it water soluble fertilizer. I checked it yesterday and it looked much healthier and even had a bloom and new growth.
Discussion id : 66-667
most recent 31 AUG 12 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 30 AUG 12 by Rose_Insanity
Has anyone noticed the definite resemblance between this rose and the HP "Cornet"? Is anyone else growing these two in their garden?
Reply #1 of 1 posted 31 AUG 12 by Rupert, Kim L.
Rose Cornet and Mrs. R.G. Sharman-Crawford are two of the possible identifications which have been considered for the past 25+ years. I sent bud wood of Grandmother's Hat to The Netherlands last year in hopes someone over there who has access to both of these other roses would grow them all together and report how they differ or resemble each other. I hope someone can and will clear up this long-running mystery. I also included Larry Daniels, Tina Marie and Jeri Jennings' Striped Grandmother's Hat in case the solid, darker pink is a mutation and one of the lighter variations is the original form.
Discussion id : 62-583
most recent 11 MAR 12 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 10 MAR 12 by Tessie
Is there a way on HMF to indicate for the Grandmother's Hats in commerce which clone and/or where the plant was originally collected? Because from what I'm hearing, there may be some differences among them. All delightful plants, and the differences may be slight, but it would be nice to know which one(s) the various nurseries are selling. I might like one of each!

Reply #1 of 7 posted 10 MAR 12 by Rupert, Kim L.
Hi Melissa, I don't see how. Each source has to state what the source of their plant is. The only way I can see to do your suggestion would be for each source to include the source of their plant in their catalog or plant list description. Or, you could contact the ones you're considering and ask where they got them.
Reply #2 of 7 posted 10 MAR 12 by Tessie
Hi Kim,

Well it seems such a shame there isn't a way to centralize the information. If one is fortunate enough to have a printed catalog, and the source is stated, that is good, or as you said one can ask, but what happens if the source isn't in the catalog, and if that nursery goes out of business (as is happening all too frequently)? Then the info may be lost.

I have been asking, as a matter of fact. In one recent instance the nursery owner didn't know, had forgotten. That's a risk too as time passes, memories fade, and records aren't always accessible or even still in existence.

Also if those of us who ask keep that to ourselves and have no way to share in such a way the info can be found easily, that's not of much help to anyone else who wants to know. Right now I'm adding sources of plants in my member journal. I wish I could add it to my garden listing for each plant though.

What were your thoughts on the source adding the origin to the plant list description? You mean here at HMF?

Reply #3 of 7 posted 10 MAR 12 by Rupert, Kim L.
Personally, I love the idea of adding the provenance of the plant. Sometimes, it can make a great deal of difference. For example, some years ago, there were two variations of Grey Pearl. One was the Huntington - Liggett variation which had yellow petal bases. The other was the Greenmantle variation which had no yellow at all, the petal bases were stark white. Both were Grey Pearl, without a doubt, but the petal bases were completely different and it actually caused the overall flower color to appear slightly different.

Your Minutifolia types are another where the source really makes a difference. The American type seems seed sterile from all that I've read. The Mexican type sets seed, as you've seen.

The issue would be there may be many multiple sources for the rose. To be able to archive the source of each nursery's material would require separate page for the same source, of each variety. If there are six separate sources of Grandmother's Hat, there would need to be six Grandmother's Hat pages, one for each initial source. Then, the individual nurseries would have to link Grandmother's Hat in their inventory listing to the correct Grandmother's Hat page or the information is erroneous. It's already difficult for some to link the right rose to the right page when there are multiple roses sharing the same name. That issue pops up fairly frequently. There are MANY roses which share the same names, with more appearing every day. Imagine the confusion and mistakes when there are multiple, virtually identical pages for many roses with the only difference being where that line originated.

Adding the necessary multiple pages for each initial source of each name will increase the size of the database considerably, increasing the cost of serving it and potentially increasing the errors in uploading rose lists significantly. I still think the best solution is for each nursery to list their initial sources in their catalogs or lists, as Vintage has in their printed catalog for years.
Reply #4 of 7 posted 10 MAR 12 by Tessie
Hi Kim,

Yes I can imagine creating multiple pages could get expensive. I was thinking along much simpler lines, in terms of making just an extra column for provenance notes. That would really be only like having an extra comment field, and members now can comment on a particular rose, and that comment shows up separately with member name attached. No need for separate pages. Or combine it with info in the Buy From field. Already name synonyms show up if the vendor sells the rose under a different one than the one the member searched for (reads "Sold as '__________' ". That is handled in the same way provenance could be, just attached to that vendor's listing of the rose. Another item that shows up there is "Offers a discount to HMF premium-membership members" when applicable. There are probably many different ways to do this. A programmer/web designer might have even better and more efficient ideas for doing this.

Reply #5 of 7 posted 10 MAR 12 by Rupert, Kim L.
Interesting idea Melissa. We'll have to see how the creative powers behind the site think it can be handled. Thanks.
Reply #6 of 7 posted 11 MAR 12 by HMF Admin
The "creative powers" are very interested and looking into the various possibilities.
Reply #7 of 7 posted 11 MAR 12 by Rupert, Kim L.
Cool! Thanks!
Discussion id : 11-571
most recent 11 APR 11 SHOW ALL
Initial post 15 MAR 06 by Rupert, Kim L.
I began volunteering at The Huntington Library in 1983. Shortly after beginning my adventure there, I became aware of an excellent "found" rose in the Study Plot, where the unknown, unidentified, Old Rose, Species and "other" roses were grown. This rose was quite impressive. Most canes were nearly thornless. She grew head high with small clusters of large, very full, intensely fragrant pink blooms at the ends of nearly every cane. The foliage was always quite clean and the new growth tips and peduncles were scented of cedar. Every time I visited the plant, she was simply gorgeous.

The plant was identified by a study name, "Grandmother's Hat" and was attributed to Barbara Worl, a wonderful lady who has worked for Bell's Bookstore in Palo Alto, California for the past half century. The story I was told was she'd "discovered" the rose growing on its own and decided that since the color was like that of silk flowers usually worn by "little old ladies" on their straw hats, she'd call it "Grandmother's Hat". It seemed appropriate.

For many years, we made sure to propagate the plant to include in every rose sale the volunteer group participated in for the institution. Grandmother's Hat was always popular, particularly when the prospective grower was told the story behind the rose.

I brought home one of the own root plants for my own garden and have been thoroughly pleased with its performance for the past twenty-three years. That own root plant spent the majority of her life sandwiched between other Old Garden Roses, throwing herself into the other bushes and blooming through them. Over the years, I think I pruned her two or three times, and she has been satisfied with either being hard pruned or left to her own devices.

A few years later, I was given a budded plant of the rose. My garden is on the side of a hill. I had created an uphill path to the upper beds, but didn't want it to go up hill in a straight line, so I off set them to create interest. I'd lined the uphill paths with redwood logs so they'd resemble Asian bridges. It did look as though there were three bridges leading uphill through the roses. At the top, I attempted to recreate the famous photograph of Constance Spry at Mottisfont Abbey. I planted the budded rose at the top of the upper bed, at the end of the last "bridge". Under the rose, I set a white plastic bench as it not only fit my budget, but would be less of a loss if stolen.

That plant quickly grew to about seven feet tall, and spread nearly ten feet. She provided the only shade in that area of the garden, so you could literally sit under her on the bench and be surrounded by brilliant sunshine. Her fragrance carried well when the weather was right, and she literally had MANY flowers on the plant any time you cared to look. I only pruned Grandmother's Hat to prevent her from encroaching on her neighbors, as Grandmother's Hat could easily shade everything else around her. The plant stood at the top of that hill for well over a decade, providing a wall of lovely, mauvy pink, filling the area with her sweet fragrance. I'm sure there had to be some disease from time to time, but it was never sufficient to make me aware of it. The plant received little chemical fertilizer, an occasional mulching of horse manure, and was only watered over head. She was a completely satisfying landscape shrub, and a truly amazing rose.

I've also grown her as a canned, commercial rose on the Pacific Ocean in Southern California and found her to be highly disease resistant in both climates. Grandmother's Hat has proven herself to be very shade tolerant, both in the mid desert as well as on the coast, though there are more flowers in greater levels of direct sun. I've seen her used as a pillar rose on an obelisk as well as trellised and grown on an arch. My favorite is still as a free standing shrub, where she will bloom literally year round in Southern California. I don't know how arctic hardy to expect her to be, so I can't provide any advice about that, but Grandmother's Hat laughs at hundred degree heat in full sun with moderate to high winds, as well as night temperatures which have dipped to the mid twenties. This is truly one amazing rose.

In March of 2005, I had the pleasure and honor of acknowledging Grandmother's Hat's excellence as a garden and landscape rose as well as thanking Barbara Worl for her keen eye and persistence in bringing the rose to popular attention. Having Barbara there to hear my thanks and receive the public applause made the event all the more fun.

I hope by posting this information here, someone may recognize her and be able to offer assistance in recovering her rightful name. It would be wonderful to give credit where credit is due.
Reply #1 of 9 posted 15 MAR 06 by Jeri Jennings
My experience with "Grandmother's Hat" is lengthy (tho not as lengthy as Kim's). We received this rose from Bob Edberg (of the old Limberlost Nursery in the San Fernando Valley, SoCalif) sometime in the early 1990's. It quickly became of our favorite roses. Finding that it was easily propagated, my husband has proceded to fill every un-tenanted spot in the garden with "his" continuous-blooming, fragrant rose. :-)

We are located in a normally cool, humid, often foggy area in South-Coastal Ventura County. Rust and powdery mildew are our chief disease problems, and they are substantial problems here. Blackspot is very, very rare. In our area, "Grandmother's Hat" is pretty much immune to mildew and rust, and is so carefree here that it should be used to landscape gas stations. It is my number-one recommendation for any California rose garden. It is even willing to grow and bloom in shade -- something few roses will do in this area, where every sunny hour is treasured.

This wonderful Western rose has been sold as 'Mrs. R.G. Sharman-Crawford,' as 'Cornet,' AND as "Barbara Worl." Another synonym is "Altadena Drive Pink HP." Under any name, It's fragrant. It's good in a vase. When we were able to show it at ARS rose shows, it was a constant trophy winner. It can be enjoyed as a fountaining shrub, an espaliered low climber, or a more modest, pruned shrub form.

Blush sports 'Larry Daniels' and 'Tina Marie' are in commerce. This most protean rose color sports easily, and changes shades at different times of the year.

Jeri Jennings, Coastal Ventura, Southern California
Reply #2 of 9 posted 15 MAR 06 by Rupert, Kim L.
Thank you, Jeri, for including your experiences with Grandmother's Hat. It's truly a great rose and by adding information such as this to all rose pages, a very useful database can be created here. Kim
Reply #3 of 9 posted 13 AUG 09 by Petsitterbarb
As a "newbie" of sorts, I've just discovered you, Kim. I'm very, very impressed with what you are accomplishing with your breeding program. I already have "Lauren" on order for Spring 2010, and am researching further for other roses that will be must haves.
I have been truly drawn in by "Barbara Worl, aka Grandmother's Hat", and it's not because I am both a Barbara and a grandmother! She seems to have every single thing that I'm seeking, with the exception of her tendency, according to others, to blackspot.
I am wondering if you have done any crosses involving this rose and, if so, what the outcome was. Thanks for your talents...keep up your good work!
Reply #4 of 9 posted 13 AUG 09 by HMF Admin
Please also be aware Kim has generously contributed many of his writings to HelpMeFind. You'll find his talent and expertise in the garden is matched by his eloquence with the pen - enjoy.
Reply #6 of 9 posted 13 AUG 09 by Rupert, Kim L.
Thank you! Kim
Reply #5 of 9 posted 13 AUG 09 by Rupert, Kim L.
Hi Barbara, thank you! Kim
Reply #7 of 9 posted 17 JAN 10 by Rupert, Kim L.
Hi Barbara, I have seedlings germinating now from Torch of Liberty X Grandmother's Hat (Barbara Worl) and Pupurea X Barbara Worl. The former is an orange mini from Ralph Moore which is the seed parent of my Lynnie. The latter is a purple-red China rose. I'll keep this thread open as to the results! Kim
Reply #8 of 9 posted 10 APR 11 by Hardy
Purpurea = r. indica purpurea hort.?

That sounds like an absolutely fascinating cross! Any updates?
Reply #9 of 9 posted 11 APR 11 by Rupert, Kim L.
Hi Barbara, Well, the first seedlings of Torch of Liberty X Grandmother's Hat have flowered. One resembles her very much, only on a more dwarf plant. The flowers aren't quite as double, but are nearly the exact color she exhibits much of the time. It's only flowered once, and I didn't notice any fragrance from it, but the weather wasn't really conducive for smelling things. The second has a much smaller flower, much more double in a much darker pink with some fragrance. Unfortunately, nearly everything on the hill has some fungus to complain of, so I can't be fair about their disease resistance. I have three Grandmother's Hat bushes. There is one in a nursery can right where the seedlings are and the old foliage on the GH, hidden by other plants, has black spot. The other two plants have much better air circulaiton and neither has any spotting. I pray the weather is going to be more "normal" this year so I can determine what of the newer seedlings will be appropriate here.

Nothing came of the Purpurea seedlings from last year, so I reproduced the cross in hopes of generating something of merit. It's being a slow germination year, so I'm not sure what to expect. I will keep you posted!

DO go for Grandmother's Hat! Even if you have to put up with a little spotting some of the year, she is such a wonderful rose the small inconvenience of some spotting is WELL worth it! Kim
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