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'Kathleen' rose Reviews & Comments
Discussion id : 123-463
most recent 17 OCT HIDE POSTS
Initial post 17 OCT by happymaryellen
How fragrant is is? I am zone 9, mediterranean climate
Discussion id : 111-348
most recent 11 SEP 18 SHOW ALL
Initial post 9 JUN 18 by mballen
Is Kathleen really only hardy to 6b? On Helpmefind Buff Beauty is listed as 5b. I wonder if anyone has experience with these in colder climes.
Reply #1 of 7 posted 11 JUN 18 by Palustris
Those hardiness ratings are a general guide. Different cultivation techniques and micro-climates also affect the rose's health. Further, there is a big difference between 'surviving' and 'thriving'. My experience with the hybrid musks, and other roses that are on the edge of their hardiness zones, is that they will live for several years in a cold zone or even longer, but only really thrive and grow to their full potential where the zone is warm enough for this kind of growth. Cold hardiness is only part of the story since the length of the growing season has a large effect too.
Reply #2 of 7 posted 11 JUN 18 by Andrew from Dolton
I grow half a dozen or so hybrid musks and they do perform well in locations with cool wet summers, in fact some varieties like 'Penelope' and 'Cornelia' have some of their biggest sprays of flowers and best colours at the beginning of Autumn in the cooler damper weather.
In 2010 we had -15C at the beginning of the year and -18C at the end of the year and they were not troubled at all.
Reply #3 of 7 posted 12 JUN 18 by Palustris
Yes, -18C corresponds to the USDA zone 7 so we consider that fairly balmy weather here in New England. That roughly corresponds to my own hardiness zone, but just 20 or 30 miles away it is zone 6. I am on a peninsula extending into the sea which keeps us warmer in the fall and cooler in the spring than the mainland. So we can grow hybrid musks very easily in my zone. The issue is how well they grow in zone 5 and 6. Again, my experience is that "it depends." It depends on micro climates, cultivation techniques and luck.
Reply #4 of 7 posted 12 JUN 18 by Andrew from Dolton
I can get frosts in June, August and occasionally July, what zone is that?
Reply #5 of 7 posted 12 JUN 18 by Palustris
You will have to ask the USDA.

BTW: historical weather data for Devon is available at

This historical data shows not even one "frost" in June, July, or August for the period 1910 to 2016; so maybe your implausible asseveration is simply that: an implausible asseveration.
Reply #6 of 7 posted 15 JUN 18 by Andrew from Dolton
I have start off by saying your "so maybe your implausible asseveration is simply that: an implausible asseveration" applying I am lying is rather offensive. As you correctly say in an earlier post, "It depends on micro climates, cultivation techniques and luck".
I live in the bottom of a valley, it is much colder than R.A.F Chivenor (which is nearer the coast), where the MET office records their data. As you walk up West Lane to the village there is a point where you can feel the temperature suddenly rise by 5 degrees. You can literally take two steps back or forward and be in the two different zones. I was only talking about a ground frost on the grass not an air frost, but it was still frozen water, in July! You can tell when there will be a frost in summer. It follows rain earlier in the day that by evening time has cleared up leaving very clear blue skies and a gentle but cold northerly breeze. Even in warm weather there are always heavy dews. Last year there were very bad late frosts and an early spring, my Camellias, Rhododendrons, Salix, Hydrangeas and many roses all had the growths killed. If you stood right at the top of the garden and looked out over Halsdon nature reserve there was a pronounced line where the cold air had settled and the frost had burnt all the new growth from the oak trees. I struggle to grow Buddleias, hydrangeas, mahonias that people up in the village easily grow. If any Australians read this, I am embarrassed by the pathetic specimen of Eucalyptus gunii (it is a particularly hardy selection that the Forestry Commission grow), even with all the extra care and attention I have given to it planting it at the top of a south-west facing side of the garden, in seven years it has only grown as high as 3M.
Also in 2015 at Chivenor was the warmest December night ever recorded in the U.K. when the temperature did not fall below 14.4C.
This year is exceptional there has been almost no rain for a month and temperatures as high as 25C. There was a late winter with snow at the end of March but since then hardly any frosts, the roses have not looked better with only a handful having blackspot. In a bad year almost all of them have it to some degree and many completely defoliated. I could not have chosen a worse place to try and grow roses. However Hybrid Musk roses grow very well.
My cottage,
Reply #7 of 7 posted 11 SEP 18 by mballen
Cold settles in low places, that is absolutely a fact.
Discussion id : 70-038
most recent 13 FEB 13 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 13 FEB 13 by A Rose Man
listed as diploid in 'Resistance Breeding For Powdery Mildew and Black Spot in Roses'.
Discussion id : 39-881
most recent 24 AUG 11 SHOW ALL
Initial post 20 OCT 09 by pem
Why do some Kathleen photos show semi-double flowers + some show singles?
Thank you
Reply #1 of 4 posted 15 DEC 10 by York Rose
It's not unheard of among roses for the number of petals to vary from blossom to blossom, especially in some varieties. I have never grown Kathleen and so have no personal experience with it, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that its flowers can vary from single to semi-double.
Reply #2 of 4 posted 17 DEC 10 by pem
That is interesting. Thank you. This Fall in Zone 7a Arkansas a pink camellia in our yard has flowers that are almost fluffy instead of their usual not very double. I wonder what pushes petal number one way or the other.
Reply #3 of 4 posted 29 DEC 10 by York Rose
I haven't ever grown camellias - :( - having never lived in a climate with a warm enough winter for them (& knowing I have neither the time nor patience to attempt growing one indoors), so I know very little about they whys and wherefores about how they bloom as they do (beyond knowing they like acidic soils in the same way that azaleas and rhododendrons do, even though they aren't in the heath family as azaleas & rhododendrons are).

As for roses (& this also probably applies to a fair number of other species in the rose family, apples for example), their genes often (USUALLY, probably) give the flowers not a specific number of petals that must be produced, but rather a range of petals that may be produced. With the wild rose species they typically have single flowers, and thus only five petals plus lots of stamens. However, some of the species (or naturally occurring hybrids, such as the White Rose of York) are semi-double (because some of the stamens have converted into petals), or have naturally occurring variants that are semi-double, or even double.

That genetic plasticity is what rose breeders play with, and sometimes the hybrids breeders create (all garden "varieties" bred by humans are hybrids of some sort or another) contain that plasticity within one plant, or even within one cluster of flowers.
Reply #4 of 4 posted 24 AUG 11 by pem
Thank you.
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