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'Rosa turcica Rouy synonym' rose Reviews & Comments
Discussion id : 107-641
most recent 29 MAR 21 SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 28 JAN 18 by CybeRose
The Flower-Garden (1838) p. 443
Origin of the Varieties of Roses

Origin of the Provins or Cabbage Rose, and the Moss Rose.—The Provins Rose (Rosa centifolia) is stated upon vague authority to have been imported from the East. It is very much cultivated near the small town of Provins, about fifty miles from Paris, whence the name of Provins rose, and not, as is commonly supposed, from Provence, in the south of France. It is known for certain that Bickerstein discovered it with double flowers growing on the eastern side of Mount Caucasus (Taur. Cauc. i. 397). It is easily recognised by the leaves being fringed with glands, the calyx viscous, the flowers drooping, and the prickles large, unequal, and curved.

This is the same plant (from the southern Taurus mountains) that Bieberstein later misidentified as Rosa ferox.
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Reply #1 of 2 posted 21 MAR 21 by kazanlik
Very interesting!
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Reply #2 of 2 posted 29 MAR 21 by CybeRose
It is beyond doubt that a charming fiction (or error) spreads faster and farther than a boring truth. Check out this brief list of some fictions spawned by Bieberstein's errors. It does surprise me, just a bit, that Bieberstein's "rocky southern Taurus mountains" turned into "eastern slope of the Caucasus Mountains".

MacIntosh: The Flower-Garden p. 443 (1838)
Provins or Cabbage Rose
It is known for certain that Bickerstein discovered it with double flowers growing on the eastern side of Mount Caucasus (Taur. Cauc. i. 397).

Paxton's Magazine of Botany, and Register of Flowering Plants p. 34 (1848)
[From "An Essay on the Geographical Distribution of Plants," by N. I. Winch, Esq.
On the other hand, the Provence Rose (Rosa centifolia) and the Officinal Rose (Rosa gallica), said to be from the south of France, but most probably originating from Asia Minor, and the Damask Rose (Rosa damascena) from the same country, are to be met with in every garden; nor is the Musk Rose (Rosa moschata), of the north of Africa, very scarce.

[The original Damascene rose was Rosa moschata. The more common pink Damask roses are probably derived, long ago, from seeds of the Musk rose.]

The Book of Garden Management ... (Beeton's Garden ... - Page 600 (1870)
Samuel Orchart BEETON
As we approach the North and West, we find in the Caucasus Rosa centifolia. ... Rosa ferox mingles its grand red flowers with it, and Rosa pulverulenta is remarked on the declivities of the peak of Mazana, a spur of the Caucasus. [Bieberstein (1808) wrote that it lived in the hills around Narzana]

Boissier: Flora Orientalis vol 2 p 676 (1872)
15. R. centifolia ... Hab. in nemorosis Caucasi orientalis (ex M.B. Taur. Cauc. I. p. 397)

Bulletin of Miscellaneous Information - Page 193 (1894)
Omar Khayyam's Rose:
The plant proves to be a form of Rosa centifolia, the sweetest scented of all the roses, from which the cabbage rose, the moss rose, and the pompon are derived. The native country of the plant is not known with certainty, but it was considered by Bieberstein to be truly wild in the Caucasus, and was found by Haussknecht in a semi-double form at an elevation of 3,500 feet, amongst the mountains of Assyria.

A Practical Treatise on Animal and Vegetable Fats and Oils: ... p. 512 (1896)
William Theodore Brannt
The Crimea is also well adapted for this purpose [collecting rose oil], especially as Rosa centifolia is said to grow wild in the mountains.

The Century Dictionary: The Century dictionary - Page 5230 (1911)
White rose. (a) The badge of the house of York. (b) Specifically, Rosa alba, a garden rose, native in the Caucasus.

Gardeners' Chronicle of America - Volumes 48-49 - Page 203 (1944)
Rosa centifolia:
A plant explorer about 1800 found it growing wild on the eastern slope of the Caucasus Mountains, between the Black and Caspian Seas.

Rose Growing Complete (1976)
E. B. Le Grice
This Rose de Mai was a hybrid between R. centifolia (from Asia Minor) and Rose de Provins (R. gallica) which is said to be indigenous, although it is believed that Theobault IV brought back from Damascus to Grasse a type of Rose de Provins with a reddish purple flower.
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Discussion id : 126-559
most recent 21 MAR 21 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 20 MAR 21 by kazanlik
The section caninae is iregular. In the case of Rosa horrida 4+1 chromosome sets. It is a pentaploid rose. One set has 7 chromosomes thus 7x5 = 35; 2n = 35
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Reply #1 of 4 posted 20 MAR 21 by Give me caffeine
Still as clear as mud. If 2n = 35 then n = 17.5. Where are you getting n from? What is 2n supposed to indicate?

I understand that a pentaploid rose with seven chromosomes would give a total of 35. That part is clear. Are you sure you don't mean 5n = 35?
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Reply #2 of 4 posted 21 MAR 21 by Plazbo
It's not algebra, it's not meant to balance like math in this case, more of a science short hand.

2n represents somatic number (effectively the number of chromosomes in a cell)
n (or 1n) represents gametic chromosome number (eg sex cells, sperm, egg, pollen, etc)
x represents genomic chromosome number

Look at rosa canina (just because it's the most studied of these types) it's usually written as 2n = 5x = 35

eg this diagram
www.researchgate.net/figure/Diagram-of-canina-meiosis-Dogroses-with-a-pentaploid-somatic-chromosome-number-2n-5x_fig1_49942591

but happens with other things, eg banana 2n = 3x = 33, like
www.researchgate.net/figure/In-situ-hybridization-to-banana-chromosomes-2n-3x-33-stained-blue-A-D-with-the_fig3_6074746


It's confusing because we also see things like 4n for tetraploid or 6n for hexaploid but those a different system, somatic number is written as 2n regardless of ploidy.
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Reply #3 of 4 posted 21 MAR 21 by Give me caffeine
Sounds completely bonkers. :D But ok. I get it now. Thanks for the explanation.
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Reply #4 of 4 posted 21 MAR 21 by Plazbo
I agree. I'm sure it made complete sense when it was thought up within the context it was being used, in hindsight probably would have benefitted from a different symbol or something given the overlap that exists now.
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Discussion id : 126-531
most recent 20 MAR 21 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 19 MAR 21 by kazanlik
2n=35
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Reply #1 of 4 posted 19 MAR 21 by Give me caffeine
Where n is an integer between 1 and 3.
Your point?
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Reply #2 of 4 posted 20 MAR 21 by Plazbo
Somatic number.

Based on the 35 (35/7 = 5) would assume horrida is one of the canina irregular polyploid types
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Reply #3 of 4 posted 20 MAR 21 by Give me caffeine
Maybe, but if 2n = 35 then n = 17.5, which is not directly divisible by either 5 or 7. So I'm still not sure what the original comment was trying to convey.
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Reply #4 of 4 posted 20 MAR 21 by ....
post deleted by user.
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