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'Beauté Inconstante' rose Reviews & Comments
Discussion id : 90-833
most recent 31 MAY SHOW ALL
Initial post 12 FEB 16 by scvirginia
I think the breeder of this rose was Pernet-Ducher, not Mme. Ducher.

It seems that one of the parents of 'Beauté Inconstante' was an unreleased seedling bred by her... see the 1897 reference from 'Journal des Roses'. My translation might be off, but I think 'BI' was bred from 'Mme Falcot' and an unreleased climber (possibly of Noisette ancestry), and that climber was the rose bred by Mme. Ducher...

She released other roses under her own name, but this one was credited to Pernet-Ducher, and he was awarded prizes for it.

Any thoughts?
Reply #1 of 6 posted 12 FEB 16 by billy teabag
I agree that the rose attributed to Widow Ducher in the Journal des Roses 1897 reference was a parent of 'Beauté Inconstante' - an unnamed climber that might have been bred from the Noisette "Earl de Eldon' - not 'Beauté Inconstante' itself.
Reply #2 of 6 posted 12 FEB 16 by scvirginia
Thanks for the feedback- I will update the breeder information, and if something else crops up to show that Pernet-Ducher was not the breeder, we can change it again. But as far as I can tell, the HMF attribution is due to a misinterpretation of that 1897 reference; all other sources I've seen credit Pernet-Ducher as the breeder.

Thanks again,
Reply #3 of 6 posted 31 AUG 19 by Patricia Routley
Virginia, perhaps if you can find the Journal des Roses issue that Darrell Schramm referred to in the ‘Rose Letter’ Nov 2018 (reference just added) it may be of interest. Darrell has said the 1871 Journal des Roses, but I think this may have been an error as HelpMeFind has this publication commencing in 1877. He says the month is July and it would surely have to have been post 1884.
Reply #4 of 6 posted 31 AUG 19 by scvirginia
I'm fairly sure I have already added any JdR references I could find. There is a July 1897 reference- that may the one?

Reply #5 of 6 posted 31 AUG 19 by Patricia Routley
I don’t know. Hopefully HelpMeFind member Darrell might confirm.
Reply #6 of 6 posted 31 MAY by Darrell
1871 was an embarrassing mistake. I meant 1897.--Darrell
Discussion id : 114-160
most recent 3 FEB SHOW ALL
Initial post 20 NOV 18 by HubertG
Does anyone have any more information about this rose? There is just one photo in it's profile and little else.
Reply #1 of 16 posted 20 NOV 18 by Margaret Furness
That tweaked something in my haphazard memory - have a look at the references for Beaute Inconstante.
Reply #2 of 16 posted 20 NOV 18 by Patricia Routley
Thanks for that Margaret. Reference added. It seems as though “Bermuda Papa Gontier” should be merged with ‘Beaute Inconstante’ file.
Reply #3 of 16 posted 29 DEC 18 by HubertG
There's a comment on Houzz, which I won't quote exactly because it can easily be found by searching for "bermuda's papa gontier", which states that "Bermuda's Papa Gontier" came as a bunch of florist roses of 'Papa Gontier' from England, and that they are certain it is the correct 'Papa Gontier'. I can't find any original printed reference to this, so perhaps it was through verbal communication.
Perhaps it should have it's own file back. The sole photo here (id37749 by David Giroux) does look like early catalogue photos of 'Papa Gontier'.
Reply #4 of 16 posted 7 JAN 19 by mmanners
FWIW, I have grown Bermuda's form of 'Papa Gontier' for more than 15 years, and have never observed the slightest hint of orange in the flower. It is consistently a mix of cherry red, paler pink, and white flecking/striping. So assuming the description (and some pictures) of Beaute Inconstante (which I don't grow or know) are correct, that it does or can have some orange, I don't think they are the same rose.
Reply #5 of 16 posted 7 JAN 19 by Margaret Furness
I wasn't convinced of orange or copper on "Mrs Heggie's Red Tea" either.
Reply #6 of 16 posted 7 JAN 19 by HubertG
mmanners, Is it possible for you to please kindly post some photos of Bermuda Papa Gontier at some point? I'd love to see more of this rose. For various reasons I'm not entirely convinced that the Papa Gontier that we grow in Australia is the real Papa Gontier. I'd love to compare Bermuda Papa Gontier to the photos of Rainbow here. Does Bermuda Papa Gontier set hips? And if it does, are they rather oval?
Reply #7 of 16 posted 7 JAN 19 by HubertG
And for what it's worth, many of the early descriptions of 'Beaute Inconstante' refer to how prone it is to mildew. If "Mrs. Heggie's Red" is not susceptible to mildew, that would have to cast doubt on it being 'Beaute Inconstante'.
Reply #8 of 16 posted 7 JAN 19 by mmanners
HubertG, I just went out for some photos of our Bermuda form of 'Papa Gontier' and may have to retract my statement, above about no orange. It's cool this morning (53°F/11.7°C) and I found a flower, grown in dense shade inside the canopy of the plant, with quite a lot of orange on it. I don't recall ever seeing anything like it before.

You mentioned powdery mildew -- that's something we don't tend to see on our plant, although we are not in a very mildew-prone area. But there are other plants in our garden that do show it, at times.

I've posted a series of photos to my flickr account ( ). Didn't want to "contaminate" the photo set here with what may be a different rose. Patricia Routley -- I'll leave that up to you -- should I post them here? Or is there a way to differentiate a potentially different rose, within a photo set for a listed rose with supposed synonymy? Thanks! Malcolm
Reply #9 of 16 posted 7 JAN 19 by Patricia Routley
Yes of course Malcolm. Please post them here. Just caption them appropriately with something like:
Growing in in Florida, own-root or whichever rootstock. Came from Bermuda’s .....wherever.... in c2004 as ‘Papa Gontier’.
Reply #10 of 16 posted 7 JAN 19 by HubertG
mmanners, Thanks for such a wealth of photos. I'll scutinise all these connected roses and return with my thoughts later.
Reply #11 of 16 posted 9 JAN 19 by HubertG
Here are some observations and opinions of mine regarding Bermuda's 'Papa Gontier', "Mrs. Heggie's Red Tea", 'Beauté Inconstante' and 'Papa Gontier' having considered the photos and references and having only grown the 'Papa Gontier' that we have in Australia.

Firstly, if the bushes of "Mrs. Heggie's Red Tea" shown in the photos of MargaretFurness (2Jan11, id 165778) and in particular JenLight (4Apr16, id279335, the mother plant) are typical, then I don't believe they could be the same variety as BermPG as photographed by mmanners. Even allowing for different cultural situations the habits are too different, and there are other differences as well.

One of the big questions retained in my mind as to the whether the Australian PG is the correct variety, is that it doesn't (or extremely rarely) produces hips. This doesn't correlate with the records that show that PG was used as seed parent on numerous occasions such as with 'Lady Hillingdon' and 'Comtesse Emmeline de Guigne'. There is even a botanical drawing of a PG hip. So it is interesting to see that Malcolm's BPG produces hips, even if they aren't as ovoid as the known drawing.
Also, as we know PG was used extensively as a greenhouse florist rose in the late 19th century, particularly in America. The style and demand was for long stems. This is something I've never observed AusPG to display and even imagining what could be achieved by forcing and feeding, it's hard to see AusPG's short usually nodding somewhat kinky stems being a raging success as an early florist rose. That's where BPG becomes interesting because mmanners shows a large bush with long straightish stems very apparent at the apex. This corresponds to the early descriptions of PG such as the Riviera reference and other florists references.
The just-opening buds in Malcolm's photos also matches the early references to being filbert-like and oddly truncated at the ends. Being compared to a filbert is very much open to interpretation, but most filbert's have a somewhat bulbous base, constrict a little in the middle, then flare out at the end. Again this is suggested to some degree in the Rosenzeitung illustration of PG.
Another big concern I have about the AusPG is it's apparent lack of similarity to PG's known sport 'Rainbow', in particular the habit and leaf shape. Even if we are just assuming that the roses grown as 'Rainbow' are correct (or could at least be 'Improved Rainbow') the foliage, structure of the bush and the flower form bear more resemblance to BPG than they do to AusPG, in my opinion.
Add to this that the flowers of BPG often show flecks or partial stripes, this suggests to me that BPG is more likely to produce a fixed stripe sport than AusPG would be (well, this is speculation but it seems logical).
Additionally, the foliage of PG shown in early catalogue photos suggest a somewhat broader or rounder leaflet than AusPG which I find is very classically and slenderly acuminate. The broader leaf shape is seen on photos here of 'Rainbow' and also BPG. Also, Malcolm's beautiful photos of BPG are taken in midwinter in Florida and show a healthy-foliaged winter flowering rose, which PG was of course known to be,although AusPG does this too of course.
Couple all this with the fact that BPG has a (at least verbal) provenance as coming from a bunch of florist roses of PG, I think that Bermuda Papa Gontier should be seriously considered as the strongest possibility for the real identity of Papa Gontier, and that the Australian Papa Gontier is some other cultivar, in my opinion.

Regarding Mrs Heggie's Red Tea being Beauté Inconstante, I have less to say. All I would point out is that the European version of BI doesn't appear to be the same as MrsHRT just looking at the photos here. Additionally, looking at the Thomas photo and the Journal des Roses illustration, the most notable similarity between these two is the rolling of the edges of the petals which is even present in the opening bud. That might be a distinctive way of helping to confirm this rose. The colour between these two depictions is similar, but in such a variable rose I guess that is nothing conclusive.
Also I'd like to know from those who grow MrsHRT if it's very prone to mildew like references imply BI was.
Anyway, these are just my considered observations. Feel free to agree or disagree. Discussion on this site is a great thing.
Reply #12 of 16 posted 2 FEB by mmanners
Who knows if the 'Beaute Inconstante' being sold in the US is the correct one, but it does seem to match the description and old paintings -- definitely orange and orangey-reds. Bermuda's form of 'Papa Gontier' seldom shows any orange at all, and its red could not be described as "orange-red." So I am convinced they are not the same rose. Now the question becomes, is it the same as a rose grown as 'Beaute Inconstante' in other parts of the world? The rose sold in the U.S. as B.I. does match photos here by Marcir and Kal-eric -- lots of orange.
Reply #13 of 16 posted 2 FEB by Margaret Furness
I culled my "Mrs Heggie's Red Tea" when it reached extreme proportions (I didn't know soon enough that you never plant a Tea in a confined space). I recall it being healthy, but it had a tendency I haven't seen in my other Teas, to have occasional black petals within the flower. Have other growers seen this in Beaute Inconstante? I still have concerns about the ID.
Reply #14 of 16 posted 3 FEB by billy teabag
In my garden, the rose that used to be in limited commerce in Australia as "Papillon", which is the same as the rose with the study name "Almerta Mrs Heggie's Red", mostly comes in shades of carmine or coppery carmine - a similar range to, say, General Schablikine or Mons Tillier. But like Mons Tillier, it can surprise you with variations in colour, especially if recent temperatures have been quite variable.
I would expect the paler colour variations or blooms where the yellow base colour is not so strongly overlain with carmine to be more common in cooler seasons and countries with cooler climates than ours.
We saw plants labelled Beaute Inconstante in gardens in the USA and they matched our "Not Papillion"/ "Mrs Heggie's Red" down to the smallest detail. Besides the usual checklist of botanical features, we have noticed that this rose has a tendency to produce unusually large leaves, and glandular bands on the receptacles that were seen in the plants in the USA.
I do not know the provenance details of the roses we saw in the USA. Most seem to accept that they are selling or buying a correctly named plant, and that is sufficient. Such an important detail when it comes to old roses! Without details of the provenance, we do not know whether a rose is a foundling with a guessed identity or if it has managed to keep its original name over the years.
Reply #15 of 16 posted 3 FEB by Ozoldroser
"Almerta Mrs Heggie's Red' is in its plain red stage at present - mid summer in South Australia. The spring flowers have the tendency to have all the shades from yellow, ochres, orangey, pinks, reds. So that means I first saw and named the rose in summer.
Reply #16 of 16 posted 3 FEB by billy teabag
Pat - could you have a look at Malcolm’s photos of Bermuda Papa Gontier please?
Discussion id : 91-913
most recent 5 APR 16 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 4 APR 16 by Jen Light
The name should be corrected to " Mrs Heggie's Red Tea" - the study name originally given by myself as property owner in discussion with Pat Toolan. Mrs Marie Heggie was the original owner of the property ' Almerta' in South Australia from 1887. The homestead was built in 1901. " Mrs Heggie's Red Tea" was one of a number of roses bordering a vineyard in front of the house. Fortunes Double Yellow, Maman Cochet, Cecile Brunner and Fortuniana still exist alongside the mother plant of " Mrs Heggie's Red Tea".
Reply #1 of 1 posted 5 APR 16 by Patricia Routley
We can't delete the Almerta name altogether as there have been three published references to it in the past, but I have made it a hidden synonym and added the name of "Mrs. Heggie's Red Tea". It is good to read of the age of your property. Thank you Jen.
Discussion id : 91-914
most recent 5 APR 16 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 4 APR 16 by Give me caffeine
Hmm. This one sounds really interesting. There aren't any nurseries listed for it in Australia. Does anyone know of a commercial source?

Also, how spikey is it?
Reply #1 of 3 posted 4 APR 16 by Margaret Furness
It's in commerce in Aus as Papillon (which it isn't - most likely Beaute Inconstante). Mine grew huge, about 5m wide x 3m high, at which stage I pulled it out to retrieve some paths. Aphids aren't interested in it. the colour varies a lot during the season, and blooms tucked within the bush can be very pale.
Reply #2 of 3 posted 4 APR 16 by Give me caffeine
Ok thanks. Looks like Mistydowns is the only place that has it.
Reply #3 of 3 posted 5 APR 16 by Give me caffeine
Mistydowns is a bit of a worry. Not only is their website incredibly slow to load, but the page for Tea roses states that they were originally produced by crossing China roses with Rosa gigantea!

Beats me where they got that daft idea. It sounds like they have somehow got Teas mixed up with Clark's roses, or something.
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