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First comments of the original post on "What is this"
Could this be Crépuscule?
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Reply #2 of 22 posted 14 days ago byRafael Maino
¿or Safrano?, I think the plant it's not so vigorous and climber as Crépuscule,(and this plant it's probably more than 40 years old), and not so floriferous, and the colour it's not so intense yellow-apricot. I post now a photo of the plant, that is more or less 190 cm hight.
Thank you for your prompt interest Jay-Jay
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Reply #5 of 22 posted 13 days ago byJay-Jay
As for the plant and this colour of the flowers: not Crépuscule.
Leaves and new twigs put me on the wrong leg.
I'm not acquainted with Saffrano. Most Teas don't survive our climate/winters.
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Reply #3 of 22 posted 14 days ago byRafael Maino
Thank you Jay-Jay for your interest
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Reply #4 of 22 posted 13 days ago byMargaret Furness
My first reaction was Safrano, although it's not usually that pink in my garden. Your first group of photos has been deleted. If you add them again, perhaps Billy Teabag or Rockhill would comment. I'm not an expert.
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Reply #6 of 22 posted 13 days ago byRafael Maino
I don't know what happened with the photos and the first post ¿?. I post again: found rose in Bariloche, Patagonia, Argentina,Tea or HT, height 190cm x width 120cm, leaves brilliant green, purplish new grown. Flowers medium to large, cupped, mild tea fragrance, yellow- apricot, soft pink shading, bloom in flushes throughout the season.
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Reply #7 of 22 posted 10 days ago bybilly teabag
Lovely rose! Does it have prickles?
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Reply #8 of 22 posted 9 days ago byRafael Maino
Hi Billy, it's a beautiful rose, indeed. It have few prickles on old canes. I have no photos of the canes, I will try to get some. The plant grows in a particular garden of an elegant and historical house, near of my house here in Bariloche, the owners are not at this time of the year, I'll try with the housekeeper, I think will be no problem. The season is good for this, very rainy and cold end of autumn, although the rose does not lose the leaves, any way I guess I can better observe the canes.
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Reply #9 of 22 posted 9 days ago bybilly teabag
Sounds like it's a splendid winter rose!
I asked about the prickles because your photos remind me of 'G. Nabonnand' which is usually thornless (except for sharp little prickles on the backs of the leaves).
Do you have any correctly named 'G. Nabonnand' plants to compare it with? 'G. Nabonnand' is often sold under the wrong name - Jean Ducher.
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Reply #10 of 22 posted 7 days ago byCarolina V. Gutovnik
Hello Billy, I am a friend of Rafael.
Do you have any idea of when began this confusion with G. Nabonnand and Jean Ducher?
Do you think the pictures of both are corectly named? Because there is no "as in commerce" file of G. Nabonnand...
Could you describe the differences between them? They seem so alike I undertand a possible confusion.
Thank you,
Carolina Gutovnik
Reply #11 of 22 posted 6 days ago bybilly teabag
Hi Carolina
To the best of my knowledge, the original 'Jean Ducher' is not in commerce and is possibly extinct, even though you can still see roses labelled 'Jean Ducher' in many nurseries and gardens, books and websites. (This rose is invariably 'G. Nabonnand'.)
If you look at the 'Jean Ducher' entry here on HMF, the only photos of the original 'Jean Ducher' are the black and white photo from Gardening Illustrated 1893 posted by CybeRose and the portrait from The Garden 1879 that I just added. All the recent photos there are of 'G. Nabonnand'.
I believe Nancy Steen was the first person to put the name 'Jean Ducher' on 'G. Nabonannd' when she found it, un-named in a Remuera (Auckland, New Zealand) garden, and from there it was sent to England under the name 'Jean Ducher'.
After it got to England, it was distributed all around the world, first by L. Arthur Wyatt, from his 'Lost and Found" Nursery, and then by Peter Beales Roses and others. It was sent to Sangerhausen from England at this time too (1960s/ 1970s).
The two roses have many significant differences.
You can see from the 1879 portrait that the original 'Jean Ducher' was a very prickly rose, whereas 'G. Nabonnand' is virtually thornless, apart from the prickles under the leaves.
'Jean Ducher' was a full, globular rose with many petals. 'G. Nabonnand' is generally much less full - although it does occasionally double and treble its petals.
'Jean Ducher' was a good dry weather rose but wasn't great in wet weather - the blooms balled and spoiled - while 'G, Nabonnand' is reasonably unfazed by cold, wet weather. It's one of the great winter roses in warmer parts of the world, producing some of its most exquisite blooms in the coldest months.
The easiest way to decide which rose you have is to check for prickles. If prickles are very rare on the stems, it's definitely not the real 'Jean Ducher'.
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Reply #12 of 22 posted 6 days ago byPatricia Routley
That is a wonderfully clear posting Billy.
Have you ever seen hips similar to Rafael's with the elongated base on G. Nabonnand?
Mine were all round. But I suspect that 'G. Nabonnand' could produce elongated hips, because I have seen both round and elongated on 'Safrano'. I've added photos of hips to both roses.
Raphael and Carolina - your rose seems to have the colour of 'G. Nabonnand' and not 'Safrano'.
It has prickles (as does 'Safrano' which has a few); whereas 'G. Nabonand' is almost thornless.
I would photograph the prickles.
Regards, Patricia
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Reply #13 of 22 posted 6 days ago bybilly teabag
Spherical hips like the ones you posted are more typical of the mature hips on my plant Patricia, but they are a bit more variable when unripe.
The rose in Rafael's photos seems to have a smooth pedicel - another reason to eliminate 'Safrano', which has a glandular pedicel.
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Reply #14 of 22 posted 5 days ago byPatricia Routley
Thank you Billy
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Reply #15 of 22 posted 5 days ago byRafael Maino
Hi Billy, I could take new photos of the canes, and hips (not mature yet). As you can see, there are some prickles in some canes, and in others not. I post a photo of the leaves (back), it have little red shark prickles.
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Reply #16 of 22 posted 4 days ago byPatricia Routley
I wonder if your rose could be 'Reve d'Or'. That has a few prickles, for me, mostly on the old wood and it has a smooth pedicel. However your foundling seems to have fewer petals and the height of 190cm seems much lower than 'Reve d'Or' is said to be. (Has it been pruned lower?) The only thing that I am unable to confirm is that lovely pink colour of the foundling's canes. Can anybody else comment on the cane colour of 'Reve d'Or'? I'll add some photos to 'Reve d'Or'.
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Reply #20 of 22 posted 3 days ago byRafael Maino
Hello Patricia, I add some photos of 'Reve D'Or' that I take last spring in Venado Tuerto, Buenos Aires province, Argentina, (I don't have this rose), and as I could see it's a huge climbing rose, that it is not the case of the rose I found here, (it grows no more than 2m, and it's an old plant, and as the housekeeper told me, not or little pruned). I give to this rose study name "La Torre"
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Reply #17 of 22 posted 3 days ago bybilly teabag
Yes! Thanks for these photos Raphael.
Looks like we can eliminate 'G. Nabonnand' from the list of possibilities.
Does this rose have a study name?
Would it be possible to make an entry for this rose on HMF so that more photos can be added over the seasons? If someone is able to positively identify it as 'Reve d'Or', or some other rose, the entry can be merged, but any details and history of this particular rose will still be recorded there.
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Reply #18 of 22 posted 3 days ago byRafael Maino
Study name "La Torre"
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Reply #19 of 22 posted 3 days ago byPatricia Routley
Superb name. Superb photo.
We'll make a special file for this foundling and will transfer your photos.
If you have any other foundlings in the future (we know you will have), perhaps it might be better to open a file first - just email us. Unfortunately we are unable to transfer these comments and they will submerge in the bottomless pit of 'What is This', we are afraid.
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Reply #21 of 22 posted 3 days ago byRafael Maino
Thank you Patricia!!, as you can notice, the place where the rose grow it's one of the most beautiful places here at Bariloche, it's an historic house, the pity is that recently a several old roses growing there where removed and replaced by Iceberg and La Sevillana!!!, (garden-designers ooooops!)
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Reply #22 of 22 posted 2 days ago byJay-Jay
You might cut and paste this thread as the first reference for this rose and name HMF as the source.
Success!
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Reply #23 of 22 posted 2 days ago byCarolina V. Gutovnik
Thank you all of you!
It is wonderfull how much I can learn from you and this page! We will be adding new pictures as the season goes on. I agree judging by the pictures that this rose is not a strong climber like 'Reve d'Or'...
This rose was found by Rafael, he was kind enough to show it to me this autumn and just helped him with the cuttings.
Kind regards, Carolina
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