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Villoresi (Villaresi), Giovanni Antonio Luigi
Discussion id : 81-989
most recent 7 DEC 14 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 7 DEC 14 by andrewandsally
Villa Cusani is NOT in Florence but in Desio, about 4 miles from Monza. Antonio Villoresi arrived in Desio about 1773 from Florence where his father Gian Domenico, worked for as a gardener for the Archduke of Tuscany.
Discussion id : 73-440
most recent 8 AUG 13 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 8 AUG 13 by CybeRose
An encyclopedia of gardening: comprising the theory and practice. Page 23 (1824)
John Claudius Loudon
Gardening in Italy
Villaresi, already mentioned, has raised from seeds of the Bengal rose (Rosa indica), impregnated promiscuously with other roses, upwards of fifty distinct varieties, many of which are of great beauty, and very fragrant.
Discussion id : 71-225
most recent 27 APR 13 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 26 APR 13 by andrewandsally
I assume that your list of Villoresi roses has been compiled by adding together the varieties attributed to him by Mrs. Gore, by Prevost and by Hardy (using the indicator Mon. or Monza). Why then do you not include 'Mere Gignogne' (p.119)? The name may be a joking reference to the rose's proliferation (its synonym was 'La Prolifere' or even to the comune of Cigognolo, 50 kms south of Milan, where the Pallavicino family had an important garden. The same question applies to 'Pourpre obscure' on p. 118.
Apologies to French readers for the absence of accents; my English keyboard won't allow them in this format.
Reply #1 of 1 posted 27 APR 13 by jedmar
I would rather think that 'Mère Gignogne' in Hardy's catalogue is a misspelling - the Bengal 'Mère Gignogne' is referred to by several other authors. Prévost attributes the rose to Vibert [our listing], although this may mean that it was sold by Vibert. "Mère Gigogne" is clearly a reference to the proliferation, as this denotes a mother with many children around her (apparently a well-known figure in marionette theatre of the era). We have added Villoresi as a breeder. Hopefully the Vibert/Villoresi duality can be resolved in future.
'Pourpre obscure' was already listed.
Discussion id : 65-798
most recent 18 JUL 12 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 15 JUL 12 by Cà Berta
It might be of some interest what reported in Monographie du genre rosier, 1824 pages 110 and 178.
Not only it testified a breeding activity with R. indica and R. chinensis in Monza (page 110) but clearly refers that the varieties Veloutéè, Bengale lie de vin and A fleur panachées were “Semis de M. Villarest” (page 178). As “Semis de” or “Semis du” was used to acknowledge the breeder of a rose (see also pages 147, 166, 168) it follows that these roses were bred by Villoresi whose name was very often misspelt (Villaresi, Vilaresi ... and now Villarest).
Reply #1 of 5 posted 16 JUL 12 by andrewandsally
Thanks for this valuable information.
Reply #2 of 5 posted 17 JUL 12 by andrewandsally
Just a thought: is it not strange that de Pronville does not refer to Belle de Monza/Bella di Monza? Is it not possible that his "Bengale lie de vin" is that rose? What leads me to this idea is that the Keller catalogue included in Annalen der Blumisterei Jg.4, 1828 p.269 gives exactly this description (Weinheferrot).
Reply #3 of 5 posted 17 JUL 12 by Cà Berta
I had the same thought!
Also Vibert (Essai sur les roses 1824, page 148) confirms the colour. It might be that he gave the name Belle de Monza to the rose previoulsy named Lie de vin. As far as I know the name Belle de Monza was never used before and Lie de vin was almost not used later except in the list of roses present in english gardens (1830, 1833, 1839) which might have been bought earlier with the name Lie de vin.
The confusion about the colour of Belle de Monza might be due to the fact that Belle de Monza (Vibert) is a synonym of bengale de Florence (Noisette). However Vibert (If I understand correctly since my french is elementary ..) thought that bengale de Florence (a limbre cendré) was a fairy tale (same book pag 36). So ... the colour of Belle de Monza should be lie de vin!.
I think that are also of some interest Vibert's comments on the colour of roses, in particular (same book page 53) on the colour "panachée" that, in bengale, more likely is foncé. In the book of Vibert the bengale a Fleur panaché disappears and for the first time suddenly appears, besides Belle de Monza, also Belle Villoresi listed at pag 147 as rose foncè.
Just thoughts ...
Reply #4 of 5 posted 17 JUL 12 by andrewandsally
That's really interesting. By the way, I missed some of the earlier discussion between you and Jedmar relating to Belle de Monza. When it comes to suspecting that there might be two forms, remember that Mrs. Gore (who, of course, hadn't seen these roses) lists both Belle de Monza and Beauty of Monza as two separate varieties. The only detailed description is the one of BdM in the garden of Mrs. von Hepp.
Reply #5 of 5 posted 18 JUL 12 by Cà Berta
... which, however, contrasts with the description of the same rose, given the previous year in the same magazine, and located in the nursery of Mr. Keller in Duisburg on the Rhine! But this leads us into the other mystery about this rose (besides its breeder): its appearance.
The hypothesis that Lie de vin (bred by Villoresi) is Belle di Monza would solve one mystery and confirm what people have been thinking for a long time. Certainly the other mystery (the fact that the appearance of the “old” Belle de Monza, as inferred by the descriptions in the literature, is so elusive) did-does not help in the identification of the breeder.
However the elusive appearance of Belle de Monza (BdM vs bengal de Florence for example) could be a true feature of this rose. Probably Belle de Monza was a double chameleon rose, in the sense of a rose that not only changed its colour but also its shape during the blooming season. In this case the peculiar appearance may be a helpful “fingerprint” in hunting for it.
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